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What if Jesus meant every word He said? 

Tags: God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The Bible, Truth, Love, Eternal Life, Salvation, Faith, Holy, Fellowship, Apologetics 

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real eyes realize

Invisible Guildswoman

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:07 am
aj OwO
Garland-Green
aj OwO
what about shellfish, clothing with mixed fabrics, or working on the sabbith, are these things ok?

Even if no one manages to follow the Law, it doesn't mean that the Law is not good. If anything it reflects mans inadequacy and need for a Savior. Can you be perfect like God is perfect? I admit that I can't, and that I need a Savior. I admit I fall short to the glory of God.


Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Unlike shellfish, mix fabrics etc. Sexual sin comes from within. It is a problem of the heart.

Matthew 15:18-20
"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

Here's what the Messiah had to say about the Sabbath:

Matthew 12:1-14

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

If you want to be justified by the Law, you are going to find that you will come very short. The demand to keep it fully down to the letter is on you to show you your need for Jesus. If you break but one letter of the Law, you have broken the whole of the Law and if that is the covenant you are under then you are going to receive the condemnation and punishment breaking the Law requires. There's no one who manages to live up to God standards. There is no one who has not sinned. It is good for you, and good for me is it that there's someone who did live a holy and just life who died for you and me, because death is the punishment for sins. Death is the punishment we deserve for not managing to keep the Law and fulfill our part of the old covenant. it doesn't mean that the Old covenant failed, or that it was weak or imperfect but that we are. Should we turn from our sins he is quick to forgive, and we will be a part of a new covenant one that is different from the old covenant in this;


‘I will put my law in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people’" (Jeremiah 31:31, 33). Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. The old covenant was written in stone, but the new covenant is written on our hearts, made possible only by faith in Christ, who shed His own blood to atone for the sins of the world. Luke 22:20 (ESV) says, "And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.’

We have be brought into a family relationship with God where we had no relationship before.


Galatians 4: 1-7
What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

The Law still hangs over you to point you to Christ. It doesn't hang over me. It has done its work and pointed me to Christ. I have repented and I am in a new covenant through Jesus' blood, one that is not dependent on my ability to keep the Law.

Romans 6:13-14
and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

God gives those in the New Covenant a new Spirit that testifies to us what is good, and leads us on the road that leads to life eternal life.

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Romans 8:3-5
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit


Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

The Law shows you what is required of you. So you need to clothe yourself in Jesus through faith.

Romans 13:13-14
Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.


If this was too long to read:
The Law is there to point you to Christ. To bring you into a New Covenant where what is right and wrong is written on your heart. That we do not follow a part of the Law doesn't negate the Law, the Law still stands as it is and will never be diminished by our inability or unwillingness to follow it. Our inability points to God greatness our weakness. The weakness is not the Law, but us.


with all that said, then why bother with the intolerance and hatred of the LGBT community? or using the bible to justify hatred and intolerance of said community?


@aj OwO: For the record, there are Christians—myself included—who obey the Sabbath, the distinctions between clean and unclean, and the other laws found throughout the first five books of the bible (since it's God commanding it, not man-made tradition, nor the rules of this world, but of God).

Emphasis on God's commands.

I do not keep the added restrictions of the Pharisees which they had made up by Jesus' day. Where, in the written Torah, is it prohibited to rub two ears of wheat/corn together? Nowhere. YHWH commanded us to refrain from cooking on the weekly sabbath day; thus, why he commanded that we cook double on the sixth day, the day prior to the sabbath (way easier to do in modern times; we have refrigerators, they didn't). Thus, on the next day, the seventh day, the sabbath, they would not cook, everyone can abstain from work, and can rest—like YHWH commanded us to. The Pharisees added conditions—which they themselves did not observe by the way—that resulted in making the Sabbath observance heavier than it needs to be.

We do not observe God's light yoke of commands to obtain salvation, but to follow Christ's instruction to obey what is read from Moses' seat.

      • Matthew 23:1-4 (NIV)

        23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.


What gets read from Moses seat:

      • Exodus 18:13-16 (NIV)

        13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”

        15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”


The Pharisees, on the other hand, added on to God's Law (which is also a sin to do):

      • Deuteronomy 4:2 (NIV)

        2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.


And that sin/transgression of the Law, continues to this day, by Jew and Gentile alike: some Jews won't even turn on a light switch on the Sabbath, even though the laws in the Torah only speak about lighting a fire FOR COOKING on the sabbath. Again, this is why we're told to cook double on the day before, the sixth day [day before the Sabbath] (Exodus 16:22-26; Exodus 35:3).

      • Exodus 16:22-26 (NIV)

        22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers[a] for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

        24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”


      • Exodus 35:3 (NIV)

        3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”



Thus the reason that the guy got stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath; he was going to light a fire with them. It's not a simple flick of a switch. And clearly, he intended to cook.

On the other hand, Christians today try to do away with the whole Sabbath command itself, if not try to interpret it in such a way where it's no longer what's literally commanded: either (A) no longer 24 hours long or (B) no longer on the seventh day, but any day they like [due to a loose, and erroneous, interpretation of Romans 14:5; and Colossians 2—two of Paul's epistles, writings which the apostle Peter warned were hard to understand due to Paul's difficult writing style and that people were twisting Paul's words, like they do the rest of the scriptures, in order to live lawless lives i.e 2 Peter 3:15-17).

      • 2 Peter 3:15-17 (NIV)

        15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

        17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.


I am not lawless. Christians like myself keep the law because we're saved (not to earn salvation; we're already saved). We keep God's Law because we walk in the Spirit—instead of the flesh, which wants to sin (transgress God's Law) and is hostile towards God's Law, never able to submit to God's Law.

      • Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)

        7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to
        God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot
        please God.

        9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the
        Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the
        Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.


      • Ezekiel 36:25-27 (NIV)

        25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you
        from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart
        and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give
        you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow
        my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
        .


That is distinctly different from wanting to keep the law to earn salvation/justification (what the Pharisee party, which Paul spoke against in Acts 15, tried to argue: insisting that Gentiles must keep it for salvation/justification's sake. Big difference. The Pharisees did not accept Jesus as Messiah nor accept him as their justification).

It has always been salvation by faith, followed by obedience to God's Law. Just like Abraham.

      • Genesis 15:6 (NIV)

        6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.



      • Genesis 26:5 (NIV)

        5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”


And even though the Laws point to Christ, there's no reason to suggest the literal keeping is done away with. The Holy Spirit we received under the new covenant gives us the desire to obey YHWH's commands/decrees/law/instructions, making no differentiation between keeping passover or loving your neighbor. They're both in Leviticus. It's God's Law. And we live by every word that comes out of the Mouth of God—whether native-born or foreigner living amongst them / grafted into Israel.

      • Matthew 4:4 (NIV)

        4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on
        every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[a]”

        Footnotes:

        a. Matthew 4:4 Deut. 8:3

      • Exodus 12:49 (NIV)

        49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”


      • Leviticus 24:22 (NIV)

        22 You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.’”


      • Numbers 15:16 (NIV)

        16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’”


      • Numbers 15:29 (NIV)

        29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.



Every word. Not some words. Same law for both native-born and foreigner living amongst them.

I don't believe in "we don't keep parts" of God's Law under the new covenant "because we don't need to". I highly disagree with Garland's handling of Paul's epistles. If we're not keeping something, it's only because there's no temple. A great chunk of God's commands rely on a temple / altar in Jerusalem; so, those commands can't literally be kept, in full, without the temple and a trained Levitical priesthood. This is the reason why the apostle Paul continued to schedule sacrifices after Jesus "once and for all" offered himself as the atonement sacrifice for our sins (i.e. Acts 21:19-26). Paul could do this because the temple was still up. Paul was not denying Jesus as Messiah for continuing to live in obedience to the law. Nor was he obligating himself to keep the whole law for salvation/justification, for attempting to live in obedience to it.

      • Acts 21:19-26 (NIV)

        19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

        20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

        26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.


Jesus promised to eat the passover meal again when he returned i.e. Luke 22:14-16 (a temple will be up by then, though it is not edified now, in Jerusalem). Passover requires animal sacrifices; thus, the reason Jews are observing a passover "seder" nowadays and not the commands as instructed by God in the written Torah—there's no temple, ergo no way to obediently observe this.

The notion that the new covenant discriminates between "which" of God's Laws should be kept (or not) is not biblical.

The apostle Paul comments on two types of observances (one prohibited and one not, and this latter one is to be left to one's own discretion/conscience):

(1) what has never been commanded/prohibited by God (like extra fasting days, and festivities like Purim and Hanukkah, that you don't find commanded in Leviticus 23, but that you also won't find any prohibitions against), thus being convinced in our own minds about whether to observe that or not i.e. Romans 14:5; they neither violate God's commands, nor were given as God's commands—neither prohibited, nor commanded) They are acceptable man-made traditions that do not nullify a command written in God's Laws.

...and...

(2) days and traditional observances which nullify something God actually did command (or prohibited); we cannot be convinced about these in our own minds; the very observance of such days and traditions is sinful (transgresses the law or tries to do away with part of the law)—which is what Jesus rebuked the Pharisees of doing in Matthew 15:1-20 and Paul warned about in Colossians 2, with their "worship of angels", "self-imposed worship", and "harsh treatment of the body" (Colossians 2:16-23) which are not things commanded by God, but that human beings impose on themselves. Not a reference to anything YHWH commanded: which is neither harsh, nor self-imposed. The Law of Moses—the Law of YHWH—is the light yoke that offers rest for our souls.

      • Jeremiah 6:16 (NIV)

        16 This is what the Lord says:

        “Stand at the crossroads and look;
            ask for the ancient paths,
            ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
            and you will find rest for your souls.
            But you said, ‘We will not walk in it.’


      • Matthew 11:29 (NIV)

        29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me,
            for I am gentle and humble in heart, and
            you will find rest for your souls.



So, to suggest that any part of God's laws is "done away with" is a misapplication of Paul (which happens quite often) due in large part to a misinterpretation of what Romans 6:14 is referring to—and I see Garland has fallen prey to this, once again. Why do people easily fall into this? Because of a failure to identify which "law" Paul speaks against in the following verse:

      • Romans 6:14 (NIV)

        14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.


Of the following laws, which fits the description above?

      • Romans 7:25 (NIV)

        25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

        So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin.


        Footnotes:

        a. Romans 7:25 Or in the flesh


Which law do you think we're no longer suppose to be slaves too? The Law of Sin in our flesh. Roman 6:14 even starts out by saying, "For sin shall no longer be your master". And as a saved person in Jesus Christ, Paul is a slave to God's law in his mind. That's a good thing. Thus Paul, in the whole of Romans 6, goes on to describe how we've been freed from sin, and made slaves to God and slaves to righteousness.

Whenever you see someone making a distinction between "grace and God's Law", it's a dead giveaway that they're misinterpreting Paul—and only Paul. Because none of the other apostle's writings are mistaken to be describing a difference between God's Law and God's grace: they even identify the law of Moses as an act of God's grace:

      • John 1:16-17 (NIV)

        16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


"Truth" = the reality of what was once prophesied in shadow in the Law of Moses. The Law—which YHWH gave to us through Moses—was considered an act of grace (favor, nothing we deserved): it was guidance to mankind for how to stay prosperous and stay in God's blessings. They were/are commands which watch out for our well-being, and the well-being of the land (even the land gets a Sabbath). As long as we live on this earth, that is the function they serve.

Sin (defined as "transgression of the law" by 1 John 3:4) is not suppose to be our master anymore. We're suppose to be freed of that nature that is hostile to God's Law. People who do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them, are the ones reliant on the letter of the law, before they can see the spiritual application. It is a schoolmaster in that sense, because upon believing in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit, we share his mind and can see how it fully applies. And it's not that we no longer keep the literal, we do. But we keep it in the truest sense of the command (don't commit adultery physically in the flesh, but also, don't even look at another person lustfully, or else you're cheating on your spouse and committing adultery there too, by a mere look).

God's Law has always been spiritual. But the nature and mindset we're born with is blinded to its intention.

      • Romans 7:14 (NIV)

        14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.


      • 2 Corinthians 3:14 (NIV)

        14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.


      • Luke 24:44-45 (NIV)

        44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

        45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.


Thus our need to be born-again, under the new covenant, receiving the Holy Spirit which writes God's law on our heart and has us walking his commands in the fullest, sincere application of what he intended.

To summarize up to this point: yes, we are suppose to keep God's Law if we're obeying Jesus' command to obey what is read from Moses' seat. The Holy Spirit, who is in us, for believing in Jesus Christ, longs to obey God's Law, seeing as He is the Spirit of God / the Spirit of Christ. God's Laws written on our hearts and in our minds, is NOT an entirely different set of laws from what he gave to Moses. Same God, same Laws. The difference is the sincere, full adherence to God's Law, even in its spiritual application, without trying to circumvent the literal nor spiritual, like the Pharisees would do.

The Pharisees didn't keep God's Laws. They kept their own version of it (that sounded religious, and Godly, but denied the very God's commands who they claimed to worship).

= Jesus rebukes

= Jesus speaks well of

      • Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV)

        15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

        3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

        8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
            but their hearts are far from me.
        9 They worship me in vain;
            their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”

        Footnotes:

        a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16
        b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9
        c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13


Garland here failed to define three things for you:

    • 1. Pharisaical / Rabbinical tradition and traditional interpretations (thus merely human rules),

    • 2. God's Law

    • 3. the Law of Sin (the "law" / regulations of our flesh which Paul speaks against in his epistles, that we no longer should be under—the sinful nature we're born with. This is not a reference to God's Laws).


That is what's throwing off his interpretation of Paul's epistles.

I'm quite surprised that Garland reiterated this stance to you. By this point, I've already spoken against this numerous times, and shown scriptures at length to prove this popular interpretation wrong, exposing it for the error that it is—on numerous occasions already in this guild.


TL;DR - we are suppose to keep those commands, even if it's not for justification. We obey the Law of Moses out of obedience to Jesus Christ's command to obey what is read from Moses' seat. The New Covenant did away with the hostility we had towards God's Law and each other; it does away with our fleshly nature / sinful nature of the flesh—thanks to the promise of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not promised to everyone under the Old Covenant. The Holy Spirit wants to walk in and submit to YHWH's laws. The flesh does not.  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:52 pm
real eyes realize
aj OwO
Garland-Green
aj OwO
what about shellfish, clothing with mixed fabrics, or working on the sabbith, are these things ok?

I should probably state that as far as there being any discrepancy between what I say and what the Bible states, the Bible is of course right. I am in no way infallible or perfect. If I am mistaken about something it is my mistake, and should not in any way reflect badly on what Scripture actually says. Everyone should make sure to test everything I say up against Scripture before accepting it as truth. No matter how much you like a person, or look up to a person you should always examine what they are saying. So good on you real eyes realize for always examining what everyone is saying, no matter who they are.  

Garland-Green

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Bubblehead0987654321

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:09 pm
Garland-Green
Bubblehead0987654321
I accept the LGBT community, and even if it's a sin, God accepts the LGBT community too. Why can't other's accept that?

Now, others will start quoting the bible of God not accepting the LGBT community, but guess what? He accepts EVERYONE, as you should too. Remember, love thy neighbor as thyself. Oh, and if you start saying you don't accept it 'cause it's a sin, then obviously you should read the bible or learn more on what's a sin. You sin every day, as they would be too. What makes it different?

Does God accept things that are a sin? Look at what the cost of sin is (Romans 6:23, Proverbs 11:19, Isaiah 3:9).
LBGT is a community that embraces its sin. Not only that - it is being pushed by this community not as not a sin, but normal behavior. God never tells us to do this. God never tells us that it is ok to sin if we can't help it, or ok to sin if we are born with an inclination to sin. Nowhere in the Bible do we find licence to continue as we were. The ideal is this: to stop sinning. To turn away from sin, and turn to God through Jesus Christ (Acts 3:19).

If you follow the Spirit that was given to you when you believed in Jesus, you will not only not sin but you will avoid sin like the plague and if you sin, you will be convicted of it and repent of your sin. If we are not freed from sin, then Jesus died in vain. If sin still has a grip on us, then we are not living the victorious lives we should in Jesus.

Romans 8:6
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves.

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I am not saying we should not love them, but let us make sure that our love really is love - by preaching repentance and salvation found in Jesus.

Ephesians 4:24
...clothe yourselves with the new nature, which was created according to God's image in righteousness and true holiness.


So you don't accept the LGBT community? Why not? 'Cause it goes against the bible? How about you go talk to the pope about this then. He accepts them even with what the bible says. Now, I have no care in the world to what he says, but this is a prime example of someone who is high in Christianity, at least in the Catholic world.  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:22 pm
Bubblehead0987654321
Garland-Green
Bubblehead0987654321
I accept the LGBT community, and even if it's a sin, God accepts the LGBT community too. Why can't other's accept that?

Now, others will start quoting the bible of God not accepting the LGBT community, but guess what? He accepts EVERYONE, as you should too. Remember, love thy neighbor as thyself. Oh, and if you start saying you don't accept it 'cause it's a sin, then obviously you should read the bible or learn more on what's a sin. You sin every day, as they would be too. What makes it different?

Does God accept things that are a sin? Look at what the cost of sin is (Romans 6:23, Proverbs 11:19, Isaiah 3:9).
LBGT is a community that embraces its sin. Not only that - it is being pushed by this community not as not a sin, but normal behavior. God never tells us to do this. God never tells us that it is ok to sin if we can't help it, or ok to sin if we are born with an inclination to sin. Nowhere in the Bible do we find licence to continue as we were. The ideal is this: to stop sinning. To turn away from sin, and turn to God through Jesus Christ (Acts 3:19).

If you follow the Spirit that was given to you when you believed in Jesus, you will not only not sin but you will avoid sin like the plague and if you sin, you will be convicted of it and repent of your sin. If we are not freed from sin, then Jesus died in vain. If sin still has a grip on us, then we are not living the victorious lives we should in Jesus.

Romans 8:6
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves.

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I am not saying we should not love them, but let us make sure that our love really is love - by preaching repentance and salvation found in Jesus.

Ephesians 4:24
...clothe yourselves with the new nature, which was created according to God's image in righteousness and true holiness.


So you don't accept the LGBT community? Why not? 'Cause it goes against the bible? How about you go talk to the pope about this then. He accepts them even with what the bible says. Now, I have no care in the world to what he says, but this is a prime example of someone who is high in Christianity, at least in the Catholic world.

I don't hold to the pope as an authoritative figure for many reasons, one being his disregard of the Bible and embrace of popular opinion and church tradition above that of divine revelation. The Bible has the last word, not our own feelings or our personal convictions.  

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Bubblehead0987654321

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:46 pm
Garland-Green
Bubblehead0987654321
Garland-Green
Bubblehead0987654321
I accept the LGBT community, and even if it's a sin, God accepts the LGBT community too. Why can't other's accept that?

Now, others will start quoting the bible of God not accepting the LGBT community, but guess what? He accepts EVERYONE, as you should too. Remember, love thy neighbor as thyself. Oh, and if you start saying you don't accept it 'cause it's a sin, then obviously you should read the bible or learn more on what's a sin. You sin every day, as they would be too. What makes it different?

Does God accept things that are a sin? Look at what the cost of sin is (Romans 6:23, Proverbs 11:19, Isaiah 3:9).
LBGT is a community that embraces its sin. Not only that - it is being pushed by this community not as not a sin, but normal behavior. God never tells us to do this. God never tells us that it is ok to sin if we can't help it, or ok to sin if we are born with an inclination to sin. Nowhere in the Bible do we find licence to continue as we were. The ideal is this: to stop sinning. To turn away from sin, and turn to God through Jesus Christ (Acts 3:19).

If you follow the Spirit that was given to you when you believed in Jesus, you will not only not sin but you will avoid sin like the plague and if you sin, you will be convicted of it and repent of your sin. If we are not freed from sin, then Jesus died in vain. If sin still has a grip on us, then we are not living the victorious lives we should in Jesus.

Romans 8:6
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves.

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I am not saying we should not love them, but let us make sure that our love really is love - by preaching repentance and salvation found in Jesus.

Ephesians 4:24
...clothe yourselves with the new nature, which was created according to God's image in righteousness and true holiness.


So you don't accept the LGBT community? Why not? 'Cause it goes against the bible? How about you go talk to the pope about this then. He accepts them even with what the bible says. Now, I have no care in the world to what he says, but this is a prime example of someone who is high in Christianity, at least in the Catholic world.

I don't hold to the pope as an authoritative figure for many reasons, one being his disregard of the Bible and embrace of popular opinion and church tradition above that of divine revelation. The Bible has the last word, not our own feelings or our personal convictions.


I don't hold the pope as an authoritative figure either, but at this moment, I will use him as an example 'cause he is going against what the bible says even though he is a Christian.

So what about divorce, that is a sin, that is intentional, why do Christians not think of this as terrible? Hm?

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." - Luke 16:18  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:59 pm
Bubblehead0987654321
Garland-Green
Bubblehead0987654321
Garland-Green
Bubblehead0987654321
I accept the LGBT community, and even if it's a sin, God accepts the LGBT community too. Why can't other's accept that?

Now, others will start quoting the bible of God not accepting the LGBT community, but guess what? He accepts EVERYONE, as you should too. Remember, love thy neighbor as thyself. Oh, and if you start saying you don't accept it 'cause it's a sin, then obviously you should read the bible or learn more on what's a sin. You sin every day, as they would be too. What makes it different?

Does God accept things that are a sin? Look at what the cost of sin is (Romans 6:23, Proverbs 11:19, Isaiah 3:9).
LBGT is a community that embraces its sin. Not only that - it is being pushed by this community not as not a sin, but normal behavior. God never tells us to do this. God never tells us that it is ok to sin if we can't help it, or ok to sin if we are born with an inclination to sin. Nowhere in the Bible do we find licence to continue as we were. The ideal is this: to stop sinning. To turn away from sin, and turn to God through Jesus Christ (Acts 3:19).

If you follow the Spirit that was given to you when you believed in Jesus, you will not only not sin but you will avoid sin like the plague and if you sin, you will be convicted of it and repent of your sin. If we are not freed from sin, then Jesus died in vain. If sin still has a grip on us, then we are not living the victorious lives we should in Jesus.

Romans 8:6
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves.

John 8:34
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I am not saying we should not love them, but let us make sure that our love really is love - by preaching repentance and salvation found in Jesus.

Ephesians 4:24
...clothe yourselves with the new nature, which was created according to God's image in righteousness and true holiness.


So you don't accept the LGBT community? Why not? 'Cause it goes against the bible? How about you go talk to the pope about this then. He accepts them even with what the bible says. Now, I have no care in the world to what he says, but this is a prime example of someone who is high in Christianity, at least in the Catholic world.

I don't hold to the pope as an authoritative figure for many reasons, one being his disregard of the Bible and embrace of popular opinion and church tradition above that of divine revelation. The Bible has the last word, not our own feelings or our personal convictions.


I don't hold the pope as an authoritative figure either, but at this moment, I will use him as an example 'cause he is going against what the bible says even though he is a Christian.

So what about divorce, that is a sin, that is intentional, why do Christians not think of this as terrible? Hm?

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." - Luke 16:18

The Bible is authoritative there also (2 Timothy 3:16). Doesn't matter really what someones personal opinion on the matter is. It doesn't really have any impact on what the Bible is saying if someone decides to disregard what it is saying. It is still true. Nothing can change that.

If someone goes against the Bible. and what it teaches they don't really have any hooks to hang their actions on validate these actions. It would hang on their own personal opinions, which are easily a subject to change. How do we know it is any better than any other opinion out there? Truth is that without truth revealed to us we are left to figure it out on our own with the dangers that entails.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?  

Garland-Green

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:17 pm
Bubblehead0987654321

"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." - Luke 16:18


Read this, it should answer some questions for you. Paul's view on diviorce.  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:17 pm
salvia plath
What is your opinion on it? I can't support a guild who can't support all lifestyles.

salvia plath
What is your opinion on it? I can't support a guild who can't support all lifestyles.


Christians do show tolerance, oddly its the people in the lgbt community that are the intolerant ones. It's like this if one does not agree with their wicked sinful lifestyle they're branded as a homophobic hater, when in reality disagreeing is not hating.

To answer your question, no I do not support homosexuality. I support God.  

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:00 am
Sexual Orientation Change Efforts: What’s Being Repaired?
Article ID: JAF6381 | By: Donald F. Calbreath

This article first appeared in the CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL, volume 38, number 01 (2015). The full text of this article in PDF format can be obtained by clicking here. For further information or to subscribe to the CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL go to: http://www.equip.org/christian-research-journal/

SYNOPSIS
“Reparative therapy,” “conversion therapy,” and “sexual orientation change efforts” (SOCE) are terms used to describe any efforts to redirect homosexual tendencies toward heterosexual behavior. These processes are strongly opposed by organizations such as the American Psychiatric Association and other counseling groups. The opposition to SOCE approaches is based on three assumptions these groups make. (1) Homosexuality is today considered a normal variant of sexual behavior and not a mental illness. (2) There are no good data to indicate that SOCE approaches have been successful. (3) Traditional religious prohibitions about homosexual behavior are outmoded and need to be revised to be in accordance with modern science. Proponents of SOCE argue that there have been many successes in changing homosexual behavior and desires in a number of individuals. Professional groups argue that there are no good peer- reviewed studies, but also prohibit their members from being involved in these studies. Policy statements attacking these treatments are not written by an unbiased group; one major statement was written by a team that (with one exception) were all homosexual or bisexual, with all members of the team being well-known homosexual activists. Legislation currently exists in California and New Jersey prohibiting adolescents from receiving this therapy, even if the adolescent desires it. Recent data documents the fluid nature of homosexual inclinations (especially during the teen years), suggesting that these counseling approaches could be very helpful to a large number of teens. Professional groups argue that the only acceptable counseling is that which brings the homosexual to a better acceptance of their state and helps them deal with the rejection they experience from those around them. Christians need to become knowledgeable about the issues and proactive in bringing the facts before the public.

Worth highlighting from the article:
Appropriate Therapeutic Responses* dismisses any religious considerations, looks only at peer-reviewed literature that supports their position, and recommends only therapy that encourages acceptance of homosexual behavior.

Attempting to characterize all sexual reorientation therapy as ‘unethical’ violates patient choice and gives an outside party a veto over patients’ goals for their own treatment. A political agenda shouldn’t prevent gays and lesbians who desire to change from making their own decisions.”
Dr. Nicholas Cummings, president of the American Psychological Association (1979–1980)

A major problem in assessing the success of SOCE is the opposition of professional groups. + When the statutes in both California and New Jersey state that there is no “rigorous scientific research” to support this type of treatment, this is a true statement. However, the reports are not there because the professional societies reject the approach and are not open to a serious evaluation of the situation. Dr. Elan Karten tells of the opposition to publishing her studies.21 She found significant changes in behavior and attraction in a group of 117 males who were struggling with same-sex attraction. “But I couldn’t get my research published,” she says. “The American Psychological Association (APA) wouldn’t touch it, and neither would any respectable journal because to do so would lead to censure and even ostracization by one’s peers in the psychological community. The APA disparages reparative therapy with their cry of ‘no scientific evidence proving the effectiveness of therapy,’ but I point my finger back at them. Do they even want to know about it? Would they even publish hard data if it bit them in the face?”


* A 2009 report issued by the American Psychological Association

+ Emphasis mine. It seems like scientific consensus is reached by silencing hard facts that doesn't agree with already reached conclusions.

Continue reading.  
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:51 am
Genetics and Homosexuality: Are People Born Gay?
The Biological Basis for Sexual Orientation
by Rich Deem

Are people born gay or straight? Much of the current media sources assume the question is a solved scientific problem with all the evidence pointing toward a biological (probably genetic) basis for a homosexual orientation. Contrary to this perception, the question has been poorly studied (or studied poorly), although there is some evidence on both sides of question. In addition, many of the initial studies, which were highly touted by the media as "proof" for a biological basis for homosexuality, have been contradicted by later, more thorough studies. This evidence falls into four basic categories:

Brain structure
Possible hormonal influences
Concordance of homosexuality in twins
Concordance of genetic markers in siblings
Real genetic studies (GWAS)

Continue reading: link

Note to reader: Sharing of any articles on godandscience.org doesn't mean that everything on the site is Biblically sound e.g. old earth creationism.  

Garland-Green

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