[A] Issue--Equality.

[Nyx Queen of Darkness]

EDIT: Apologies for only mentioning same-sex couples throughout most of this, it was a bit long and legal-ise to say it for every sentence. This is supposed to be representative for all alternatively paired souqili.

I hadn't seen anyone else bring this up and I already know that it will be controversial...but here it goes anyways.

Soquili has taken huge steps in making same sex couples more equal to regular couples. We now have the ability to have lovemates be lifemate which is awesome.

Genetically, pairs with one female and one male of the same size (ie, male regular and female regular, etc) can produce children together. Same sex couples cannot genetically have children together.

Heterosexual pairs can have babies through regular breedings enabling them to pass on their genes--however, same-sex pairings do not have this ability.

If a same-sex pairing wants to have babies, it must be done through mock-breedings, wishing stars, etc.

In wishing stars and mockbreedings (the only option for a same sex pairing to have kids with genetics from both sides), you have to have permission from any and all ancestors even if they are direct descendants.

This provides two problems for same sex couples:

1. Any soquili that is part of a same-sex pairing cannot have access to their own ancestors for genetics since they can only have babies that are genetically both parent's from mockbreedings/wishing stars. This raises an inequality amongst same sex pairings and heterosexual pairings. (I do realize that mockbreedings/wishing stars require it of all pairings-heterosexual, same-sex, and other couples with unique situations-- have permission to use their own genetics. But since this is the only way you can have babies with a same-sex pair, it presents a problem.)

2. Soquili is done so that genetics play into what couples can or cannot have babies naturally. However, by limiting soquili's ability to use their genetics--it's going against the same rule. You cannot pick or chose your ancestors. (This also opens up the issue of missing owners of ancestors who've left gaia or even people who don't want to allow their genetics to certain people--which is something that's not even allowed in regular breedings.) Again, you cannot pick and choose your ancestors.

In short, we've been given a lovely title for our same-sex pairs, but we're still required to be given permission to use their biological relatives if we want to have family throwbacks--which is not the case for heterosexual breedings (though the same for anyone who enters Mockbreedings/Wishingstars).

Issue: Same-sex/alternative life-style soquili are not allowed to use their ancestry without permission in the only way possible for them to actually have a "biological" child.

Suggestions:

Abolish the permissions thread.

Allow lifemated pairs full access to their ancestry no matter if it's mock-breeding or wishing star.

Allow full access to ancestry for all pairs in only Wishing Stars.

Allow full access to ancestry for mock-breedings/wishing star with proof that it's not a "crack-breeding".

Open to other suggestions!

Polite and friendly discussion only please!  

[LydaLynn]

I think part of the draw for the colorists with the WS events is that it's simpler on them. Some of that is not having to worry about ancestory. I agree that in cases where ancestory is allowed it should be equal across the board. But I don't want the idea of forcing equality to make the WS more work than it is worth. Because currently the WS is equal for all couples in the WS. The issue, I think, is more that that limited venue is the only option for some couples.

I think it would be good if there was an option for more normal breeding for non traditional couples. But before we go too far in any direction we might want to consiter the ramifications. Unfortunately something like that would probably result in fewer WS events.  

[Nyx Queen of Darkness]

It would be interesting to have events like those Nova, but it would probably overstress the colourists and we don't want to determine what they can and cannot do for events though, it would be fun if they so chose to do it. (Congrats on the car! ^_^)

IMO, adopted family is different since they aren't genetically tied to the family no matter the feelings of love and connection. I would not expect my adopted kelpi boy to have the genetics of his adopted family. Though, the problem (I peronsally feel) with people being able to pick and chose which soquili can have their genetics and which can't is that it can become petty (ie, I don't like you, I don't like your soquilis life choices, etc). Genetically, even real life people can't decide that "you're out of my family" and forbid a family member from looking like them.

Lyda, I do agree it is simpler on them than regular breeding but at the same time if we get permission for family members, they still can look at any links provided or completely disregard them. The only thing that's really changed is that we're having to do the extra work to get permission for all aspects of the lineage which can be quite...difficult given that some people have left gaia or owners have changed.

Previously, it had been allowed to do Wishing Stars without having permission for ancestors. You still had to provide proof if it was a crack pairing (I believe?) or you were wishing for a pony that was the ancestor/friend of a pony you did not own.

I would also like to elaborate a bit on my topic, my concern is mostly with wishing star mockbreedings rather than custom mockbreedings. I do view them differently since you can fully customize a mockbreeding in customs whereas in Wishing Star/any other mockbreeding events that crop up--the discretion is left soley up to the colourist.  

[elfstar89]

I'm kinda in a place where I can see the need to require permissions, especially for the customed mockbreedings. I'm very much fine with that on customed mockbreedings, because in that case, you get the option to choose all traits and edits and breed edits, etc.

That said, the Wishing Star breedings...I do not currently have any pairs that may not reproduce through traditional breedings, and none of my Soqs are later than Gen 3. Even at Gen 3, getting all those permissions sorted just for the privilege of throwbacks that are granted automatically to the traditional pairs does seem an inordinate amount of work. And allow for the foals to potentially miss out on something they may've liked about the way an ancestor looked that didn't carry down to the parents.

From a colorist's perspective, a breeding is a lot of work for effectively not a helluva lot of gold, and from a customer's perspective, it's a relatively inexpensive way to expand a family and continue plots in interesting directions. Throwback genes can allow for a lot of interesting things, regardless of whether they resulted from a traditional breeding or a wish granted by the spirits. I've seen plots get off the ground in a way one would not have expected unless throwbacks happened. As a colorist in my own shop, I've observed that throwbacks don't necessarily mean more work, unless they add more edits to the table; they can mean something as simple as a wider range of genes that can result in a more attractive, cohesive breeding baby design that wouldn't be possible if the parents in question alone were considered, assuming that the parents' physical appearances clashed with each other painfully. Which I've colored. What I would not have given for throwbacks on those breedings. ><

I have no idea if my experiences as a colorist are fully comparable in Soq, as I do not work here. I know that throwbacks can give my colorists a headache in my shop when rolling the traits of each breeding baby, but we've worked to come up with charts and forms that help streamline the process, which does seem to make it a bit easier to just go through the rolls.

My biggest concern about the idea of having Wishing Star breedings where all throwbacks have to be OKed by owners of ancestors, in no particular order, are as follows:
- The OL isn't entirely up and running yet, and may not be so for quite a while, so it may be dicey to track everyone down
- Not everyone keeps exacting teepees that are even usually up-to-date, see above
- Some people have left Soq/Gaia over the years, and may be out of touch
- Some people may not be totally comfortable with same-sex breeding and block permissions on those grounds
- Some people may just straight up dislike who owns their descendants and where things have gone, and object

I guess my thoughts are that things should be a bit more streamlined and helpful for those who would like to see throwbacks in Wishing Star mocks. Heck, even a normal pair in Wishing Star mocks might consider the rigamarole frustrating. oO  

[StarieMichie]

IMHO, the real equality issue is that same sex and other unable to breed couples have to have RP in Wishing Star events to prove they're a couple when opposite gender couples don't need to be RPed at all. You can just fling them as much as you want.

Either they should all require RP to be entered, or none of them should need to be RPed.  

[Nyx Queen of Darkness]

elfstar89

I'm kinda in a place where I can see the need to require permissions, especially for the customed mockbreedings. I'm very much fine with that on customed mockbreedings, because in that case, you get the option to choose all traits and edits and breed edits, etc.

That said, the Wishing Star breedings...I do not currently have any pairs that may not reproduce through traditional breedings, and none of my Soqs are later than Gen 3. Even at Gen 3, getting all those permissions sorted just for the privilege of throwbacks that are granted automatically to the traditional pairs does seem an inordinate amount of work. And allow for the foals to potentially miss out on something they may've liked about the way an ancestor looked that didn't carry down to the parents.

From a colorist's perspective, a breeding is a lot of work for effectively not a helluva lot of gold, and from a customer's perspective, it's a relatively inexpensive way to expand a family and continue plots in interesting directions. Throwback genes can allow for a lot of interesting things, regardless of whether they resulted from a traditional breeding or a wish granted by the spirits. I've seen plots get off the ground in a way one would not have expected unless throwbacks happened. As a colorist in my own shop, I've observed that throwbacks don't necessarily mean more work, unless they add more edits to the table; they can mean something as simple as a wider range of genes that can result in a more attractive, cohesive breeding baby design that wouldn't be possible if the parents in question alone were considered, assuming that the parents' physical appearances clashed with each other painfully. Which I've colored. What I would not have given for throwbacks on those breedings. ><

I have no idea if my experiences as a colorist are fully comparable in Soq, as I do not work here. I know that throwbacks can give my colorists a headache in my shop when rolling the traits of each breeding baby, but we've worked to come up with charts and forms that help streamline the process, which does seem to make it a bit easier to just go through the rolls.

My biggest concern about the idea of having Wishing Star breedings where all throwbacks have to be OKed by owners of ancestors, in no particular order, are as follows:
- The OL isn't entirely up and running yet, and may not be so for quite a while, so it may be dicey to track everyone down
- Not everyone keeps exacting teepees that are even usually up-to-date, see above
- Some people have left Soq/Gaia over the years, and may be out of touch
- Some people may not be totally comfortable with same-sex breeding and block permissions on those grounds
- Some people may just straight up dislike who owns their descendants and where things have gone, and object

I guess my thoughts are that things should be a bit more streamlined and helpful for those who would like to see throwbacks in Wishing Star mocks. Heck, even a normal pair in Wishing Star mocks might consider the rigamarole frustrating. oO

I agree. Regular pairings have it just as hard. I rather dislike the entire permission system anyways as far as mockbreedings via wishing star go since it's a lot of work whether or not your couple is an alternative couple.

However, I focused only on the alternative couplew because it's the only option available that's the most akin to actual breedings.

Thank you for your thoughts--all of you!  

[Nyx Queen of Darkness]

StarieMichie

IMHO, the real equality issue is that same sex and other unable to breed couples have to have RP in Wishing Star events to prove they're a couple when opposite gender couples don't need to be RPed at all. You can just fling them as much as you want.

Either they should all require RP to be entered, or none of them should need to be RPed.

I do agree with you. (I am a fan of it being RP supported all around). Though even though this addresses inequalities, it is not directly on topic to this discussion (I do believe there should be a topic on this though or maybe there is already?) However, I would like to stay on topic here so that the thread doesn't get shut down for veering too far off it's topic.

But your points are valid and I would love to see a thread about it!

Thanks!  

[one over three]

Ok so, this is just based on my understanding of the matter.

I don't think the choice to require reference permissions stems from being worried about people's sensibilities or whether or not it changes the work load for anyone. In fact I'm fairly certain it's because wishing stars are not breeding slots, they are semi-customs, and semi-customs will always require permission when referencing other people's ponies, related or not.

While I understand the sentiment and the concerns... We can't just decide that one type of semi-customs requires permissions, and another does not. It would be entirely unfair.
 

[Nyx Queen of Darkness]

I'm not sure I'd consider Wishing Star mockbreedings to be semi-customs since the winners of the slot have no choice/voice in how the babies look compared to actual semi-customs where you have some voice in the matter.

Permissions for Wishing Stars is new. I've won some in the past and never needed to have permission to post the biological family.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I find the rule strange since Wishing Star Mockbreedings were considered seperately in the past and now they're not.

So in the past, they were considered to be breedings? But then it changed?

That's the part I think is unfair--the rule change that makes it even more difficult to show the biological family.

I do agree that I don't see it changing the workload of the colourists. It does change the workload for anyone entering.  

[one over three]

Nyx Queen of Darkness

I'm not sure I'd consider Wishing Star mockbreedings to be semi-customs since the winners of the slot have no choice/voice in how the babies look compared to actual semi-customs where you have some voice in the matter.

They are different than other semi-customs in the fact that the parents you give as refrence are how you influence the outcome rather than a list of likes or dislikes, but they are still semi-customs. Mock breedings can be requested on semi-custom forms, regular breedings can not.

Nyx Queen of Darkness

Permissions for Wishing Stars is new. I've won some in the past and never needed to have permission to post the biological family.

This is a bit hard for me to respond too because I haven't been around for every single wishing star ever and don't know all the rules for each one. What I do know is that reference permissions have always been required in customs and it's only now that we have a permanent way to check if folks are being honest when they say they have permission to reference someone else's pony.

Nyx Queen of Darkness

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I find the rule strange since Wishing Star Mockbreedings were considered seperately in the past and now they're not.

So in the past, they were considered to be breedings? But then it changed?

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to communicate here. >: Can you re-word maybe? Sorry. The best I can say is that wishing stars were never breedings. If they were at any point breedings they they would have to, by definition, counted against your pony's max breedings. Since they're "Extra Baskets" then clearly they don't and never had counted against your max.

I'm kind of fuzzy on the IC rules surrounding "Extra Basket" slots because I think they can be RPed like regular breedings but I can't remember for sure. "Miracle" slots have to be found baskets.

Nyx Queen of Darkness

That's the part I think is unfair--the rule change that makes it even more difficult to show the biological family.

I do agree that I don't see it changing the workload of the colourists. It does change the workload for anyone entering.

In my honest opinion enforcing the ability for people to decide who can or can't reference their ponies in custom situations is entirely fair. It would be unfair to allow people to decide what permissions should be when it concerns other people's ponies.

These are semi-custom slots and have to be treated like semi-custom slots.

 

[Sabin Duvert]

Reading through, I think it does boil down to a fact a few other people have posted:

ICly, These aren't biological children. The star grants two soquili a wish of a child that resembles both of them. The star isn't going back and checking geneology. There's no mix of genetic data that might carry throwbacks.

Furthermore, the star might also give them something they don't expect. Two full size soquili could produce a mini child. It's magic~

So for both traditional AND non-traditional couples, there are no throwbacks, so that makes sense to me and seems equal.

I think the other thread - talking about requiring either a LM agreemet or RP examples for ANY couple wishing for children from a wishing star would make the playing field the most equal.  

[CheshireKttty]

Kitsune Mistress Nyoko

Throwbacks are not allowed in Wishing Stars, so this suggestion is moot.

Except that throwbacks ARE allowed and have been allowed. Yes right now they are required to have permission to be used, BUT they are still allowed.


Personally if my pony is related (biologically or whatever the appropriate word) I should have access to those traits in any sort of breeding/mockbreeding environment. I believe there was a big issue a couple years back with people trying to say other people couldn't use their pony as a reference even though it was ACTUALLY related and the shop stepped in and said that people couldn't just pick and chose relations. If you're related you're related. So I don't really understand why we have to get permission for it in this instance either. If it's not an 'official' relation (i.e. your pony is Gen. 1 and another pony adopted it, that's completely different.) Or even for customed in relations.

Just because I don't like my dad doesn't mean I can skip out on his genes. If I ever have children they'll still be genetically related to him whether I like it or not. I can also see throwbacks being a pain for colorists, but either way they still have to do the same amount of work. All it does is make it harder for customers to get the information collected. I have to try and contact people that I have never contacted before and hope that they are still on gaia and then I have to try and keep all of the links together. Heck, I can't even keep my teepee updated anymore.

No, it's not the end of the world that we have to get permission, but it is a really big inconvenience. Especially for those with very large family lines.  

[mindsend]

Wishing Stars are Semi-customs resulting in First generation soquili, much like Customed Offspring done as a non-semi-custom in the Customs thread. UNLESS You have express written permission to use the soquili as a throwback in Customed Offspring, you cannot use throwbacks for ANY First generation customized offspring, regardless of whether or not they're capable of breeding biologically. This is partially because there are some ponies with restrictions that require permissions of the owners to custom into the family and carry the trait (Example: Lucifer and the trait of having three or more Sets of wings) AND the fact that you need permission to use someone elses pony as an example in customs regardless.

We have had people take someone elses pony without their permission and gotten a clone of them customized simply because they had a great great great great great grandchild who's breeding they were allowed to custom into and SERIOUSLY piss off the owner of the original. This is why first generation soquili require permissions.

Additionally: Spirit children CAN use their Spirit Parents, grandparents, etc as throwbacks in breedings that count against the breeding limit (4-6 depending on stats and eldership status) and result in generation two and beyond offspring. Though if they cant breed into a parents line due to their breed they cant get genetic throwbacks to them (But can get colors and edits), so two fullsizeds CANT throwback and birth a mini-child and visa versa

So in Summary.

1st gen child created: Needs permission from everyone who owns the ponies they wish to include as a throwback to allow their owners peace of mind and prevent moderator intervention for 'theft'.

Breeding resulting in gen 2 or higher: No permissions necessary as long as it is a direct descent (Motherx father, grandfathers x Grandmothers, etc. If Parent is first gen and has a sibling, sibling Can be used to triangulate what their ancestors might have looked like)

Throwbacks in Wishing stars: IF throwbacks are allowed in said wishing star (they are not always), permissions must be posted along side the individuals included in the throwback because children are first generation, regardless of if the pair can breed naturally or not.

Miracle Children: If miracle children breed using biological methods, they are allowed to use their Spirit Parents line as ancestry in Throwbacks in NORMAL Breedings without asking, just like a first generation pony can use its first generation parents in throwbacks (Example: Mecho Amachi can use Sabras Amachi, Almase, and Fallo Amachi for his throwbacks despite each one of the four ponies mentioned are first generation).*
.. But still require written permissions to use in Custom and Semi-custom settings (Custom/semi-custom quests purchased with gold, Wishing stars, Semi-customs that allow you to submit a pony as an option of inspiration, rogue breeding semi-customs, Crack-pairing Semi-custom Mixers etc)

*NOTE: If the first generation kid doesn't already display certain mutant trait or breeds, they cannot be gained in the offspring via throwback without written permission (Lucifer's tri-wing trait, a family specific template (reusing a mutant wing template used for the family before rather than redrawing), Megamutants) or at all (Once a purewalker is no longer involved in the breeding, it cannot be thrown back due to the fact that angeni blood can start being mixed in regardless of if the wishing star happened as Purewalker is not a throwback option.) . Use of more readily available mutations and breeds is completely up to colorist to use for throwbacks in breedings however (four clawed hippogryph traits, suti, angeni, uniquely drawn wings, treebutts etc). Colors, markings, and accessories are allowed to be thrown back in said situation regardless in breedings that take slots and result in gen 2 + offspring..

In addendum: this is not about inequality or us wishing to treat one as being more than the other. This is more about the nature of First Generation over Second Generation and giving owners control over their own soquili when OTHER people are getting first generation soquili. NO ONE should be allowed to use throwbacks in the wishing stars without permissions of the owners, which is why they have been removed from More Recent wishing stars as people were assuming they could use without written permission.

We still consider the offspring, either spiritually in the case of Miracles or biologically in Extra gifts, the offspring of their parents and it literally is just a case of 1st gen vs 2nd gen and beyond.