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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:39 pm
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Hello,
I'm new to this guild, so most of you probably don't know me. However, I really feel like I need some kind of help here, and I don't feel like I can go to the people I know for it. I ask them to pray, they ask why, and when I can't exactly explain it, they seem to assume all I'm having is some kind of typical teenage mood swing. However, I really don't think I can live like this for much longer.
Unlike most Christians who seem to have stories of being 'set free' after accepting Christ, I experienced the exact opposite; a few weeks after I believe I became a Christian, I was diagnosed with severe depression. I've never even considered that I had it before then, nor did any emotional 'downs' I've felt in the past compare to what I feel now. The thing is, this depression is almost entirely based on my spiritual state. I never consciously feel like my school stress, family, friends, or even the state of the world influence my depression; it's always been about how I feel like I'm going to hell, how I become aware of my lack of love for others, how I doubt the sincerity and/or scientific validity of my beliefs, etc. I have never experienced this level of sadness and darkness until after I confessed Jesus as Lord. And it's driving me fairly consistently to the brink of suicide.
If you could remember me in your prayers, I would be very grateful.
Thank you.
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:02 pm
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Hello brother!
It is not unusual to feel this way. It is not uncommon to feel doubt, and uncertainty about what you believe. To feel as if there is a world of evidence against what we believe. I think doubt is something everyone struggles with at one point or another, and moment where we question even our salvation. I certainly do at times. I see where I am coming terribly short to the glory of God.
I want to say something positive about that, and that is that how would you know on your own? How would you know how much you need Jesus, unless the Spirit is in you testifying this to you? Consciousness of sin, is not something that pops into our minds from ourselves. We are very dependent on Jesus. There is no way I or you, or anyone here can make it on our own. Thank God for Jesus. Thank God that Jesus righteousness is mine now. My own righteousness just won't do. If you lack anything - you should ask. It is freely given. =)
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:9-12 NIV)
I will pray for you!
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:10 pm
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:35 pm
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Thank you both, very much!
It seems like God's been trying to send me a few messages lately, too...Not only was my church's sermon today about dealing with grief and spiritual darkness, but I also watched the weekly Christian show 'Living Truth', and it's message was about recognizing that God uses our suffering for his greater purpose. If we thank Him for His goodness, even in the midst of our trials, we'll experience true joy, since we know everything is under control.
Having been raised in a Christian household, I always thought I understood this stuff...it's pretty amazing that you can 'know' so many things without actually realizing what they mean until you're forced to learn for yourself!
It's especially been hard for me to determine the difference between my own emotions and the truth of my relationship with God. Before experiencing these things myself, I would've been the first to blow off someone's similar experiences with the easy-to-say "our emotions have no effect on reality" statement. While true, we're still emotion-driven creatures, and we learn more from experiences than communicated information. Perhaps God is preparing me to help someone in a similar situation?
Garland-Green I want to say something positive about that, and that is that how would you know on your own? How would you know how much you need Jesus, unless the Spirit is in you testifying this to you? Consciousness of sin, is not something that pops into our minds from ourselves. We are very dependent on Jesus.
That actually makes quite a bit of sense, but I think it also brings up another question: can we lose the Spirit? That's actually one of the reasons I've been so afraid to simply trust that everything will be alright. That was what I did before I became a real Christian, whenever doubts about the state of my soul (that I now know was the prompting of the Holy Spirit) entered my mind. I would just let it go and ignore it, and I'm terrified that when I do that now, I'll risk reverting back to my Godless self...
Tsur With all the facts the world has it's just that facts. Without Love and God they are nothing. remember Hollywood? Most of the set looks and appear real from a superficial standpoint but when you look at It from all sides it is just a show. Same with worldly things they appear to be true and sometimes use elements of truth but they fall apart when fully tested.
Very true. That's why, even before I accepted Jesus into my heart, I came to the 'intellectual conclusion' (that's what I called it then, anyways) that God was most likely to exist. However, I still find the 'what if...?' question constantly popping up in my head. "What if" God doesn't exist? "What if" another religion is true? I've even gone so far as to question the nature of reality itself, i.e. "What if" Solipsism is true? While part of my brain knows that there's no reason to doubt, that no philosophy or belief can have undeniable evidence, and that Christianity is a matter of faith and trust, that nagging feeling still pops up rather frequently, much to my despair. Life really doesn't mean anything to me anymore if I don't have Jesus.
I've asked God to take it away from me, but He hasn't (at least, not yet). My brain is so full of conflicting ideas that I sometimes feel like I'm gonna explode @_@ I guess this is just something I have to try to endure and ignore until God works it out?
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:20 pm
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Red Wight Hello, I'm new to this guild, so most of you probably don't know me. However, I really feel like I need some kind of help here, and I don't feel like I can go to the people I know for it. I ask them to pray, they ask why, and when I can't exactly explain it, they seem to assume all I'm having is some kind of typical teenage mood swing. However, I really don't think I can live like this for much longer. Unlike most Christians who seem to have stories of being 'set free' after accepting Christ, I experienced the exact opposite; a few weeks after I believe I became a Christian, I was diagnosed with severe depression. I've never even considered that I had it before then, nor did any emotional 'downs' I've felt in the past compare to what I feel now. The thing is, this depression is almost entirely based on my spiritual state. I never consciously feel like my school stress, family, friends, or even the state of the world influence my depression; it's always been about how I feel like I'm going to hell, how I become aware of my lack of love for others, how I doubt the sincerity and/or scientific validity of my beliefs, etc. I have never experienced this level of sadness and darkness until after I confessed Jesus as Lord. And it's driving me fairly consistently to the brink of suicide. If you could remember me in your prayers, I would be very grateful. Thank you.
This may be a lengthy reply so please bear with me. Where to begin...first of all I want to tell you that I have been exactly where you are. I may cry while writing this because I feel your pain as it was mine once. I know exactly how you feel. Everything in my life was going as it should in every aspect and I had no reason to feel depressed so it was hard to explain to others why I felt like I did. I had just rededicated my life to Jesus when suddenly I was attacked by the devil with depression and severe anxiety. I didn't want to live anymore. I even prayed to God to either heal me or kill me. I know that sounds awful but that's how I felt. I would just lie on the floor and cry while the cloud of depression was on me and other times be terrified that I was a bad person and on my way to hell. Let me tell you right now, these thoughts and feelings that you are experiencing are lies of the enemy. Jesus said the devil is a liar and there is no truth in him. He lies to us to try to stop us in our faith and walk with the Lord. Every time we step out to do something for the Lord, he tries to stop us with his lies. Feeling and thoughts will lie to you because those are the things he uses against us. That's why the Bible says to renew our minds. This is essential and this is what saved my life. I got every scripture I could find where the Bible told us as believers in Christ who we are "in Him" and I quoted them every day in the devil's face whether I felt like it or not. I would just keep confessing them even though I felt the opposite of what I was saying. When the devil would put the thought in mind "I am a bad person and I am going to hell", even as I felt the fear so strongly, I would say out loud "I am the righteousness of God in Christ, The Lord has not given me a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind, I am accepted in Christ and there is no condemnation for me in Christ!" This is only an attack. You are being attacked because you are on the right track. Keep walking in Christ. Just because you feel fear doesn't mean that it belongs to you. Just because you have bad thoughts come into your mind, they are not your thoughts so don't take them as yours. Instead of listening to the devil and believing what he says, take God's Word and confess it until it gets into your heart and believe what His Word says. That's why the Bible says "I set before you life and death, choose life" It is not about your feelings, your thoughts or how you behave, it is about who you are in Christ and who you choose to believe. As you grow in this, you will be transformed into His image from one degree of glory to another and after a season, you will be a force the devil will not want to mess with. I know you are in pain but keep moving forward in Christ and let Him lead you out. He will not leave you, fail you nor forsake you and He certainly will never let you go no matter what. He's got you. (See Hebrews 13: 5, 6) Renew your mind and fight those thoughts and feelings with the Sword of God's word. The devil hates it when you quote the truth of God's Word out loud in response to his lies. When Jesus was tempted in the desert, He simply said "IT IS WRITTEN!" and eventually the devil left Him. You are in a time of testing. Rejoice for you are coming out stronger and you will fulfill your calling and purpose in Christ. Don't let the enemy stop you. Keep going forward in God's Word. This pain, depression and fear will pass when you become stronger in the Lord. God bless you and keep you. You are a precious child of God. Know that. I will pray for you.
P.S If anything comes to you in fear, it is not from God. The devil will come and say the two words he is famous for "what if". What if I commit the unpardonable sin...what if God is mad at me...what if I go to hell...what if I am a bad person. Christians cannot commit the unpardonable sin. Anything that comes to you in fear is not of God. God is Love and perfect Love casts out fear. |
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:29 pm
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Scripture is powerful when spoken aloud. These are some that I speak aloud everyday to fight the enemy and the negative thoughts the enemy tries to give me.
Of course, prayer is also important. Daily prayer and fellowship with our Lord Jesus. He loves you individually and wants to hear from you. The enemy wants you to stop praying and stop reading your Bible. When the enemy attacks is the time to draw closer to Jesus then ever before. God bless and my prayers for you.
My son, pay attention to what I say; turn your ear to my words. Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart; for they are life to those who find them and health to one’s whole body.
Proverbs 4:20-22
Scriptures to Meditate and Speak aloud
I am called with a holy calling. The Lord is my refuge and my Fortress, my God; on Him I lean and rely, and in Him I trust! He will cover me with His pinions, and under His wings shall I trust and find refuge; His truth and His faithfulness are a shield and a buckler. Because I have made the Lord my refuge, and the Most High my dwelling place. There shall no evil befall me, nor any plague or calamity come near my tent. For He will give His angles charge over me to accompany and defend and preserve me in all my ways of obedience and service.
Psalms 91
Lord, teach me to number my days, that I may develop a heart of wisdom.
Psalms 90:12
God, let your beauty and favor be upon me. Confirm and establish the work of my hands.
Psalms 90:17
For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
II Timothy 1:7
The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God.
II Corinthians 10:4
I have the mind of Christ and do hold the thoughts, feelings, and purposes of His heart.
I Corinthians 2:16
I shall establish myself in righteousness: I shall be far from even the thoughts of oppression or destruction, for I shall not fear and from terror, for it shall not come near me.
Isaiah 54:14
Whatever is true, worthy of reverence, honorable, seemly, just, pure, lovely and loveable, kind, attractive and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, I will think on, weigh and take account of these things, fixing my mind on them.
Philippians 4:8
I cast my whole of my care, anxieties, worries and concerns, once and for all on Him, for He cares for me affectionately and cares about me watchfully.
I Peter 5:7
He will not leave me, fail me nor forsake me.
Duet. 6:8; Matt. 28:20
He goes before me and is with me wherever I go.
Joshua 1:9
I sought the Lord and He heard me and delivered me from all my fears.
Psalms 34:4
The battle is not mine but God’s.
II Corinthians 20:15
For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for peace and welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jer. 29:11
(Jesus said…) “My peace I leave with you; My own peace I now give and bequeath to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Stop allowing yourself to be agitated and disturbed and do not permit yourself to be fearful, intimidated, cowardly and unsettled.”
John 14:27
Peace that passes all understanding keeps my heart and mind through Christ Jesus.
I Peter 1:2
My body is the temple, the very sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who lives within me.
I Cor. 3:16, 17, 6:19
Because I am a member of His body, I am nourished, carefully protected, and cherished my Him.
Eph. 5:29, 30
I am covered by the blood of Jesus and protected by God’s angels wherever I go. The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and delivers them.
Psalms 34:7
God gives His angels especial charge over me to accompany, defend, and preserve us in all my ways.
Psalms 91:11
By Jesus’ stripes I am healed
Isaiah 53:5, I Peter 2:24
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Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:28 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VwH1_foFL4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR0ZVZItT2E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6qt4qZUnWc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8hOoxVDLF4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFfgQtS528
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpDD6_Zo0Js
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uMmmg_OScQ
http://www.gty.org/Blog/B110328/once-saved-always-saved (please don't think while you're reading this article that you can lose your salvation because that is not what it is teaching as far as I understand since GTY is run by John MacArthur I believe and he teaches that we can never lose our salvation no matter what but rather what I believe it is trying to say is that if you have been truly saved it's going to result in you doing the works to prove it James 2:14-26 because you can never lose your salvation "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." - Philippians 1:6 and please don't think James 2:14-26 is teaching a works based salvation because it's not but rather it is simply teaching that if you're saved then good works and you bearing fruit (John 15) is the result of your salvation and not what causes your salvation as I stated in the begining)
These are perhaps a couple of things that may or may not help you out but yeah I mean, if you have truly repented and believed until salvation then you're saved and there is nothing you can do that will ever take that away from you (John 6:35-40), you can never lose the Holy Spirit but you can definately grieve it (Ephesians 4:30). If you can sense you're a sinful person and feel hopeless because you have realized that you can do nothing then consider that a blessing because you can't do anything, take it as God trying to call you to rely on him to overcome your sin and be your peace, as believers we can have that peace that only Christ can give, a peace of knowing that God is in control and that he has promised to give us victory over our sin. We must rely on God for everything and you should use this time that you're depressed over your spiritual state to call out to God and ask him to save you if you're not saved and to give you peace and help you get victory over your sin. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied."- Matthew 5:6
We must seek after God always and learn to lean upon him and only on him, we must never rely on our own strength to overcome something or anyone or anything else for that matter, but solely on God and God alone. I'll pray for you and hopefully this was of some help for you but please don't keep looking at yourself but always focus on Christ, never take your eyes off of him, but always look to him and the moment you do feel like you've fallen then run back to him, do not linger there until you feel you've done something to make up for what you did or like you should stay away from him for a while because you've fallen but rather just run back to him RIGHT AWAY do not hesitate, there is nothing you can do to save yourself or make yourself righteous before God, Isaiah 64:6 says all of our righteous deeds are like filthy rags before God and therefore we must not rely on such but just simply rely on Christ and what he has done for us on that cross which was pay for all our sins for us because we could never pay them, it's just impossible for us. So once you feel you've sinned and like you can't face God, just remember he COMMANDS us to go to him, we are to confess our sins to him, repent of them, and he is just and faithful to forgive us for our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. He will restore you to himself, he is faithful, no worries do not hide from him, satan wants us to not go running to God right away but rather he'd want us to linger on what we've done until we feel we can go back to God but no, the reality is we are to go running to him as soon as we've sinned and he will not cast us out but rather forgive us and help us.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
I reccomend you read all of the book of Romans as well as find a good church to attend http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/ this site is a good tool for finding a truly biblical church that is actually teaching truth. Please find peace in knowing that Christ paid for your sins and so now you can have salvation for free. It would help you to be around other true believers so you can grow in the faith and you can share your struggles with them and maybe they can help you out, I would reccomend you speak with the pastor and the Elders of the church about your issue, it may be of some help to you.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
(I think most of the Bible verses I quoted or all of them were from the NASB bible, either all the NASB or both NASB and ESV, I can't remember honestly but I tend to only quote from the NASB, ESV, or the KJV, so I kind of doubt it'd be from anywhere else)
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:24 am
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Countess Verona Christians cannot commit the unpardonable sin
1. Christians can commit the unpardonable sin.
2. They HAVE committed it (in the bible) and
3. Nothing suggests Christians after them cannot commit this sin.
For instance,
Ananias and Sapphira were not forgiven, but were struck dead, for sinning against the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:1-11)
People who have shared in the Holy Spirit, and fall away, will not be saved (Hebrews 6:4-6).
Nothing can bring them back to faith if none of the things listed there could maintain them. I've seen people try to twist this verse, suggesting it's not true because Peter denied Jesus and ended up repenting later, but they fail to realize: Peter didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after his denial, thus was not sharing in the Holy Spirit when he made his three denials. Peter received the Holy Spirit after Jesus was put to death and was resurrected (John 20:22). Peter denied Jesus before Jesus was put to death (John 18:15-27), thus before he received the Holy Spirit. Peter's example in no way conflicts with the truth of Hebrews 6:4-6... share in the Holy Spirit, and fall away from the faith? Not saved. And can't repent.
That said, Paul warned Timothy via letter to fight the good fight of faith, to take hold of the eternal life he was called to. Why is this necessary to say if you're going to be saved anyway based upon your conversion back in the day? Timothy does have the Holy Spirit, no one can make the excuse "oh, it's only the false converts who are being warned". No. Paul laid hands on Timothy so that Timothy could receive the Holy Spirit. Timothy already had the Holy Spirit. Question: why is Paul warning Timothy, someone with the Holy Spirit inside of him, about staying faithful to Jesus, if it weren't a danger for him to lose his faith and abandon/disown Jesus? Answer: because if you don't believe in Jesus/maintain faith in Jesus, despite receiving the Holy Spirit at one point, you will not stay saved. You can lose faith even after receiving the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 1:6-7 (NIV)
6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.
1 Timothy 6:12 (NIV)
12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
2 Timothy 2:11-12 (NIV)
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
note: for the record, people receive the Holy Spirit in different ways:
upon believing (Acts 10:44),
upon repenting of their sins and asking for it some time later (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:15-17; Luke 11:13),
some without repenting of any sins nor believing anything, like John the Baptist from the womb (Luke 1:15).
The latter, however, seems to be a special case when someone is chosen and set-apart for a particular task before he's even born.
But you can lose it. Despite receiving the Holy Spirit, we don't lose our "free will" upon conversion. We can deny Him. Which brings me to...
starry night-163 you can never lose the Holy Spirit but you can definately grieve it (Ephesians 4:30).
Actually, there have been instances where the Holy Spirit was so grieved to the point that He left/abandoned the people:
Isaiah 63:10 (NIV)
10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
This part of Isaiah describes the wilderness wanderings (the generation of Israelites and Gentiles Moses led through the desert). We're told they heard the same Gospel / Good News we did. But they never entered into his rest / never made it into the promised land / didn't stay saved (and I say "stay" for a reason: the Israelites [and the mixed multitudes] that Moses led out of Egypt had to believe at one point that God would protect them [let alone that he existed] in order to go along with Moses. Moses said they were leaving to worship God [Exodus 7:16], not to mention, they would've witnessed all 10 plagues against Pharoah and the Egyptian gods. They believed. But they stopped believing along the way, so they didn't stay saved.)
Hebrews 3:14-19 (NIV)
14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[a]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 3:15 Psalm 95:7,8
Hebrews 4:6-11 (NIV)
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[a]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[b] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 4:7 Psalm 95:7,8
b. Hebrews 4:10 Or labor
Jude 1:5 (NIV)
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[a] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Footnotes:
a. Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus
Disobedience/unbelief, same thing. It's because they don't believe the whole message, and in God's ability to provide, that they choose to disobey.
Luke 18:8 (NIV)
8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
Why is this even a question if God will force people to believe against their will? based on a past where they did believe, but is no longer true? Just because God is faithful to what he says, it doesn't mean man will be faithful to his proclamation of faith. God is going to be faithful either way: believed my son until the end? Saved. Didn't believe / stopped believing? Not saved—like he originally stated (he stays loyal to what he promises i.e. John 3:16-18). He is faithful to finish what he started. But man isn't.
Let's not—in an effort to comfort others—deliver a feel good message that is devoid of the actual truth, that turns a blind eye to verses speaking against a doctrine, regardless of how popular and feel good it is. The whole truth of Scripture is what matters. We need to abandon these popular doctrines that are spreading lies / hiding the truth of the totality of the Scriptures.
Other verses to consider:
Romans 11:22 (NIV)
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
John 15:2 (NIV)
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.
Footnotes:
a. John 15:2 The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans.
Romans 11 addresses Gentiles that were grafted in. John 15 about people who follow Christ. These people were in Christ. Then they were cut off. Once saved, but DID NOT stay saved.
edit: I forgot to quote you as I was answering ... sweatdrop
Red Wight That actually makes quite a bit of sense, but I think it also brings up another question: can we lose the Spirit?
Yes. Seals can be broken. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:07 pm
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real eyes realize Countess Verona Christians cannot commit the unpardonable sin 1. Christians can commit the unpardonable sin. 2. They HAVE committed it (in the bible) and 3. Nothing suggests Christians after them cannot commit this sin. For instance, Ananias and Sapphira were not forgiven, but were struck dead, for sinning against the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:1-11)
People who have shared in the Holy Spirit, and fall away, will not be saved (Hebrews 6:4-6).
Nothing can bring them back to faith if none of the things listed there could maintain them. I've seen people try to twist this verse, suggesting it's not true because Peter denied Jesus and ended up repenting later, but they fail to realize: Peter didn't receive the Holy Spirit until after his denial, thus was not sharing in the Holy Spirit when he made his three denials. Peter received the Holy Spirit after Jesus was put to death and was resurrected (John 20:22). Peter denied Jesus before Jesus was put to death (John 18:15-27), thus before he received the Holy Spirit. Peter's example in no way conflicts with the truth of Hebrews 6:4-6... share in the Holy Spirit, and fall away from the faith? Not saved. And can't repent.
That said, Paul warned Timothy via letter to fight the good fight of faith, to take hold of the eternal life he was called to. Why is this necessary to say if you're going to be saved anyway based upon your conversion back in the day? Timothy does have the Holy Spirit, no one can make the excuse "oh, it's only the false converts who are being warned". No. Paul laid hands on Timothy so that Timothy could receive the Holy Spirit. Timothy already had the Holy Spirit. Question: why is Paul warning Timothy, someone with the Holy Spirit inside of him, about staying faithful to Jesus, if it weren't a danger for him to lose his faith and abandon/disown Jesus? Answer: because if you don't believe in Jesus/maintain faith in Jesus, despite receiving the Holy Spirit at one point, you will not stay saved. You can lose faith even after receiving the Holy Spirit. 2 Timothy 1:6-7 (NIV)
6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.
1 Timothy 6:12 (NIV)
12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
2 Timothy 2:11-12 (NIV)
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
note: for the record, people receive the Holy Spirit in different ways:
upon believing (Acts 10:44),
upon repenting of their sins and asking for it some time later (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:15-17; Luke 11:13),
some without repenting of any sins nor believing anything, like John the Baptist from the womb (Luke 1:15).
The latter, however, seems to be a special case when someone is chosen and set-apart for a particular task before he's even born.
But you can lose it. Despite receiving the Holy Spirit, we don't lose our "free will" upon conversion. We can deny Him. Which brings me to... starry night-163 you can never lose the Holy Spirit but you can definately grieve it (Ephesians 4:30). Actually, there have been instances where the Holy Spirit was so grieved to the point that He left/abandoned the people:
Isaiah 63:10 (NIV)
10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
This part of Isaiah describes the wilderness wanderings (the generation of Israelites and Gentiles Moses led through the desert). We're told they heard the same Gospel / Good News we did. But they never entered into his rest / never made it into the promised land / didn't stay saved (and I say "stay" for a reason: the Israelites [and the mixed multitudes] that Moses led out of Egypt had to believe at one point that God would protect them [let alone that he existed] in order to go along with Moses. Moses said they were leaving to worship God [ Exodus 7:16], not to mention, they would've witnessed all 10 plagues against Pharoah and the Egyptian gods. They believed. But they stopped believing along the way, so they didn't stay saved.) Hebrews 3:14-19 (NIV)
14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”[a]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 3:15 Psalm 95:7,8
Hebrews 4:6-11 (NIV)
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[a]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[b] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 4:7 Psalm 95:7,8
b. Hebrews 4:10 Or labor
Jude 1:5 (NIV)
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[a] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
Footnotes:
a. Jude 1:5 Some early manuscripts Jesus
Disobedience/unbelief, same thing. It's because they don't believe the whole message, and in God's ability to provide, that they choose to disobey. Luke 18:8 (NIV)
8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
Why is this even a question if God will force people to believe against their will? based on a past where they did believe, but is no longer true? Just because God is faithful to what he says, it doesn't mean man will be faithful to his proclamation of faith. God is going to be faithful either way: believed my son until the end? Saved. Didn't believe / stopped believing? Not saved—like he originally stated (he stays loyal to what he promises i.e. John 3:16-18 ). He is faithful to finish what he started. But man isn't. Let's not—in an effort to comfort others—deliver a feel good message that is devoid of the actual truth, that turns a blind eye to verses speaking against a doctrine, regardless of how popular and feel good it is. The whole truth of Scripture is what matters. We need to abandon these popular doctrines that are spreading lies / hiding the truth of the totality of the Scriptures. Other verses to consider: Romans 11:22 (NIV)
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
John 15:2 (NIV)
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.
Footnotes:
a. John 15:2 The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans.
Romans 11 addresses Gentiles that were grafted in. John 15 about people who follow Christ. These people were in Christ. Then they were cut off. Once saved, but DID NOT stay saved. edit: I forgot to quote you as I was answering ... sweatdrop Red Wight That actually makes quite a bit of sense, but I think it also brings up another question: can we lose the Spirit? Yes. Seals can be broken.
Many Christians are attacked by this fear so I just want to comfort any Christian who truly loves God that they do not need to fear. heart
Here is a quote from Joseph Prince ministries: smile
"The unpardonable sin is committed when a person constantly rejects Jesus, knowing full well that He is the Messiah. When Jesus mentioned the unpardonable sin in Matthew 12:31–32, He was speaking to the Pharisees who rejected Him at every turn and were looking for ways to kill Him.
Those who have accepted Christ are in no danger of committing this sin, which is why the apostle Paul, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament, never mentioned an unpardonable sin. Instead, he assures believers that all their sins have been forgiven because of Jesus' one sacrifice at the cross (Hebrews 10:12–14)."
God bless! |
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:32 pm
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Countess Verona Many Christians are attacked by this fear so I just want to comfort any Christian who truly loves God that they do not need to fear. heart Here is a quote from Joseph Prince ministries: smile "The unpardonable sin is committed when a person constantly rejects Jesus, knowing full well that He is the Messiah. When Jesus mentioned the unpardonable sin in Matthew 12:31–32, He was speaking to the Pharisees who rejected Him at every turn and were looking for ways to kill Him. Those who have accepted Christ are in no danger of committing this sin, which is why the apostle Paul, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament, never mentioned an unpardonable sin. Instead, he assures believers that all their sins have been forgiven because of Jesus' one sacrifice at the cross (Hebrews 10:12–14)." God bless!
I'm sure you just wanted to comfort a fellow brother, but comforting him with error is not true comfort at all, especially later when he comes across the verses that expose the reality of the matter. Paul may not have used the specific phrase, "unpardonable sin", but he did describe the same exact thing (assuming the book of Hebrews is written by Paul). That's why I cited Hebrews 6:4-6, which says,
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
This proves one of the points I was making: just because it's popular doctrine, it doesn't necessarily mean it is the truth of the entirety of the bible. Maybe Joseph Prince said this out of ignorance, simply not knowing this verse exists, (perhaps he's just studying doctrines or confiding in study guides instead of reading the bible first hand daily, I don't know), but he is clearly wrong. Paul does mention it; he describes the same impossibility to be forgiven once the person has received full conviction of the truth and is actively acting against it / falling away from the faith. To say it's just about rejecting Jesus as messiah is simply not complete: Ananias and Sapphira were not denying Jesus as messiah, but they did commit a sin against the Holy Spirit and they were not forgiven, but smited on the spot. |
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:51 pm
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real eyes realize Countess Verona Many Christians are attacked by this fear so I just want to comfort any Christian who truly loves God that they do not need to fear. heart Here is a quote from Joseph Prince ministries: smile "The unpardonable sin is committed when a person constantly rejects Jesus, knowing full well that He is the Messiah. When Jesus mentioned the unpardonable sin in Matthew 12:31–32, He was speaking to the Pharisees who rejected Him at every turn and were looking for ways to kill Him. Those who have accepted Christ are in no danger of committing this sin, which is why the apostle Paul, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament, never mentioned an unpardonable sin. Instead, he assures believers that all their sins have been forgiven because of Jesus' one sacrifice at the cross (Hebrews 10:12–14)." God bless! I'm sure you just wanted to comfort a fellow brother, but comforting him with error is not true comfort at all, especially later when he comes across the verses that expose the reality of the matter. Paul may not have used the specific phrase, "unpardonable sin", but he did describe the same exact thing (assuming the book of Hebrews is written by Paul). That's why I cited Hebrews 6:4-6, which says, Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 6:6 Or age, 6 if they fall
This proves one of the points I was making: just because it's popular doctrine, it doesn't necessarily mean it is the truth of the entirety of the bible. Maybe Joseph Prince said this out of ignorance, simply not knowing this verse exists, (perhaps he's just studying doctrines or confiding in study guides instead of reading the bible first hand daily, I don't know), but he is clearly wrong. Paul does mention it; he describes the same impossibility to be forgiven once the person has received full conviction of the truth and is actively acting against it / falling away from the faith. To say it's just about rejecting Jesus as messiah is simply not complete: Ananias and Sapphira were not denying Jesus as messiah, but they did commit a sin against the Holy Spirit and they were not forgiven, but smited on the spot.
I just wanted to point out to the person who was needing comfort that fear is not from God and anything that disguises itself in fear is a lie. I have been where he is and understanding the difference between how God speaks to us and how the devil tries to speak to us is crucial.
I see now that he did not actually bring up the topic of the unpardonable sin but I know now as I didn't before that whatever the doctrinal differences people have on the subject, the unpardonable sin is committed willingly not by accident. A lot of Christians have been attacked by the fear that they either have or will accidentally commit this sin and they need to be told the truth against the devil's fears on that. Those who love the Holy Spirit and know that He lives in them need never be afraid that He will leave them since He promised not to. I should have omitted that one statement that I made to him since he did not bring it up but I was mostly concerned about comforting him. I felt his pain and know what he is going through. |
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:10 pm
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:56 am
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Instead of worrying abut hell and such, why not admiring God's beautiful grace for us? heart
Jeremiah 29:11 ESV.
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Here is a tip to keep in mind: as long as you keep on deepening personal relationship with God, YOU'LL BE FINE. He knows that we as a child keep falling again and again (just like baby who is learning to walk), but don't give up and stay on sin when you fall. Instead, fight and ask for God's help.
Proverbs 3:5-6 ESV
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths.
Dear God, I am right now praying for my dear brother in Christ. He has committed to follow You but now is in fear and depression. For Your perfect love casts out fear from the devil; thus comforts him and sustains him in You.
In Jesus's name, I prayed. Amen.
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:19 am
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CountessValpolicella I think rather than debate a fellow Christian and that person's theology. I think it would be better to assist a person who needs comfort and help. Also, to pray for people who need our help, like the person who started this post. This post was not about theological differences but about a fellow Christian who needed help. I don't wish to assume that you are going through posts looking for theological debates to argue, because I would rather think the best of everyone. I sincerely hope that is not what you are doing. And yes! Those people did their best to COMFORT him. Even though you want to say, "but comforting him with error is not true comfort at all" The Bible says that we are to avoid debating theological errors and not quarrel with each other and not "look" for things to argue. But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Titus 3:9I think we should debate things politely possibly in some other thread not bring them up when a fellow Christian needs our help. There are more important things like comfort, help, and love. Let us show others that we are loving Christians. Let us show others that we have the light of Christ in us.
First, it is not me, myself, who "wants to say" that "comforting with error is not true comfort at all". It is scripture.
Zechariah 10:2 (NIV)
2 The idols speak deceitfully,
diviners see visions that lie;
they tell dreams that are false,
they give comfort in vain.
Therefore the people wander like sheep
oppressed for lack of a shepherd.
If it's not the truth, then you're giving comfort in vain. Jesus warned us that false teachers and false prophets will arise in the last days. Do you not know how serious it is if we lead a new believer directly into their fauces? They're the wolves in sheep's clothing: they don't teach the full truth, they don't really follow the Word, despite looking like sheep. Just because he dresses up like a pastor, and uses Jesus' name, it doesn't mean he's one of us, is teaching the truth, or is actually approved by God. And how are we lured in by the enemy? With pleasant-sounding things:
2 Timothy 4:3 (NIV)
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Notice the effect falsity has on God's sheep: it leads them astray and oppresses them (Zec 10:2). The total opposite of comfort. If we "comfort" Red Wight with a lie, and he comes across all the verses I provided (in my correction towards you and starry) on his own time, reading the bible, how is he going to feel? Anxious all over again! Lies/error are not a long term solution whatsoever. Nor can he trust us to speak the truth to him again.
What does God suggest truly leads to comfort? His word, his truth, not a "theological stance" derived at by men.
Psalm 119:52 (NIV)
52 I remember, Lord, your ancient laws,
and I find comfort in them.
John 17:17 (NIV)
17 Sanctify them by[a] the truth; your word is truth.
Footnotes:
a. John 17:17 Or them to live in accordance with
John 14:16-17 (KJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Useless, unprofitable arguments would be what the Sadducees and Pharisees liked to do: present Jesus with hypothetical "theological" situations concerning God's Law (e.g. "whose wife will she be in the resurrection if her husband dies, and she marries his brother, but then the brother dies, and she marries another brother, and so on and so forth..." paraphrasing the argument found in Matthew 22:23-33). That helps no one (and honestly, it was not even a genuine concern of theirs; they just wanted to trap Jesus). None of what I provided, in direct response to Red Wight's questions about the Holy Spirit, is useless or unprofitable. It is vital information about the Holy Spirit, pure scriptural truth. I'm not setting up a hypothetical to argue and to speak useless words. I'm telling him what the bible says about the Holy Spirit, what the Holy Spirit did in the past, does in the present, and can/will do in the future.
If God wanted something conveyed about the Holy Spirit, then that is what I'm interested in providing—all of what God had to say about the Holy Spirit, whether we like it or not (because it rubs us the wrong way due to us learning some false doctrine in our past [otherwise, having those verses offered in conversation shouldn't bother us at all]). Any deviations from God's truth needs to be corrected—or else it is no longer his message. If it is no longer his message, it will not have his desired effect on the believer. That's the point of surrounding ourselves with other believers: so we don't fall for lies / attacks of the devil or succumb to the flesh so easily. We're suppose to be a support system and correction is a part of that.
Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 (NIV)
9 Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their labor:
10 If either of them falls down,
one can help the other up.
But pity anyone who falls
and has no one to help them up.
Ecclesiastes 4:12 (NIV)
12 Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.
2 Timothy 4:2 (NIV)
2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
Ephesians 4:11-15 (NIV)
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
We are suppose to confront theological error, just like Jesus.
Matthew 22:29 (NIV)
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
None of what I said was said in hate. So, instead of getting offended (?) that a fellow believer offered supporting scripture to provide a fuller view of the Holy Spirit, in response to another believer's question, thank God that error was exposed, error which could potentially lead you, and all of us, astray, error which robs of any true comfort in the long run. Don't place your trust in Joseph Prince. Place it in God's Word—all of it. Subtle lies / errors can lead us into sin or leave us in our sin.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (NIV)
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Colossians 2:4 (NIV)
4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.
Be careful not to become one of these:
Isaiah 30:10 (NIV)
10 They say to the seers,
“See no more visions!”
and to the prophets,
“Give us no more visions of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things,
prophesy illusions.
...preferring comfort over truth. |
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