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 Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:47 pm
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So I'm a part of a Christian/Atheist debate page on facebook... I just thought I'd share with you guys the kinds of posts and responses you see... (I'm Vance, Julie is OP)
Julie: TO ALL THE CHRISTIANS: You say that you are not motivated by fear of hell. OK, put your money where your mouth is:
Stand up right now, look up and say, "God, I don't believe in you anymore. If you really existed, you'd be amazing, but from what I've seen in the bible, you are nothing but a sadistic psychopath who wants people to suffer. I'd rather be in hell than worship your sorry butt! Leave me alone!"
Yes, that's right. I want you to lie to your god. If he's real, he'll forgive you, but this little exercise will tell you what your real motivations are.
You don't even have to say in here if you did it or not. But YOU'LL know and that's what matters. Just be honest with yourself about how you feel about doing this.
Comfortable? Or not so much?
Riiguo: #Julie you haven't answered my question yet. So provide the evidence you have found regarding your statement of nothing but tools reference to hell and satan
Julie: Riiguo, I don't need scientific documentation to confirm that satan is a control device. It's common sense that can easily be discerned by reading the bible and using your brain. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god woudn't create a nemesis and build him a lair. That's just insane. And if such a god WOULD do those things, that would not be something worth worshipping as it would mean your god is a sadistic a******.
Me: Julie, allow me to explain your ignorance in that respect...
The angels were given free will as humans were, but they were created as servants, not children. Lucifer was the most magnificent of angels, likely being an angel that lead worship to God. He CHOSE to rise against God, along with 1/3 of Heaven's angels, where they were then cast out of Heaven.
Scripture states over and over how Satan's dominion is earth. When he's cast into hell after Christ's return, he will suffer, not rule. Satan is not an all-powerful being and neither are the fallen angels with him.
God's plan requires angels that have free will. With that came the risk that some would rebel. God would be more sadistic by creating servants that were bound by a mindset that was not their own.
TJ: A lot of preaching.
TJ: Just because you believe the claim does not make it fact.
Me: Well what do you want? It's a group for either side to prove their point. Of course I'm going to reinforce scripture with scripture.
If you can't handle that, you're on the wrong page.
Me: Let me take away all of evolutionary theories, then.
"Just because you believe the claim does not make it fact"
William: Vance, you dont know God creator, angels, heavens hence nor satan thus never know hell and paradise
Me: I do know my Creator. I've surrendered my life to Christ, and He's revealed Himself to me, as well as revealing the reality of demons and angels, Satan included.
No, I don't know hell or paradise. I know I'm not going to hell because of Christ's sacrifice, and I'm looking forward to spending eternity in paradise.
TJ: " Well what do you want? It's a group for either side to prove their point. Of course I'm going to reinforce scripture with scripture.
If you can't handle that, you're on the wrong page. "
Yes it is a debate group not a preaching group. Do not state claims as facts unless you can back it up Vance. Unless you enjoy being dishonest.
TJ: " I do know my Creator. I've surrendered my life to Christ, and He's revealed Himself to me, as well as revealing the reality of demons and angels, Satan included.
No, I don't know hell or paradise. I know I'm not going to hell because of Christ's sacrifice, and I'm looking forward to spending eternity in paradise. "
Like this BS. Nothing but personal testimonials and preaching. Evidence up or all of this is just a story. For all we know you are unreliable. Hence we ask for evidence to support claims.
Me: I wasn't basing any facts on that "BS." The man was speaking ill of my faith, so I explained what I believe.
TJ, there's no need to be hostile, here... if scripture has no grounds to defend itself in your eyes, you're wasting your time even arguing.
But for a Christian to defend their faith... what are we going to defend it with if we can't use our primary foundation? You're being entirely unreasonable in that case.
TJ: Oh I am not hostile. You will be well aware of my hostility if I wish to express it. I am not here to argue Scripture as fact. I am here to argue a claim and discuss it. It remains a claim until proven. I have no problem with people using it, but the Bible should not be used to defend the Bible. What is wrong with stating it as an opinion? Is that not more honest?
Me: Came off as more than just an opinion... I apologize if I jumped ahead and made assumptions.
I personally feel like scripture has the ability to defend itself better than any person... but I'm not going to fight you on opinions.
Or fight you at all.
TJ: Well fighting is preferable to kissing, no chick flick moments!
Julie: Vance, now let ME correct YOUR ignorance: From your OWN ridiculous book:
Isaiah 45-7: " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."
According to your religion, your god created evil, including satan with the Knowledge of everything that would happen. That makes your god one of two things: A completely sadistic psychopath or imaginary. Take your pick.
Me: The more accurate translation is "calamity," not evil (used in NKJV after many words were corrected when compared to the original Hebrew and Greek). So considering God has brought and will bring judgement to the perpetually unjust... yeah, I see nothing wrong with that scripture.
And TJ, no worries :p not much of a fan of kissy chick flicks, lol
Julie: That's bull****, but you're shoveling it, so you should know. Your god created everything according to your bible, so it stands to reason he would create evil, too. Unless you're saying your god DIDN'T create everything, that he's NOT omnipotent. In that case, we have a different discussion altogether, don't we? You can't have your cake and eat it too, little boy. The cake is a LIE.
Me: Oh no, the CONCEPT of evil was indeed created by God. You can't conceptually have goodness and perfection without evil and imperfection.
Tied in with free will, when Lucifer rose against God, he inherited the first evil nature.
I was simply correcting a misunderstanding of scripture
Julie: I don't think I misunderstood anything. It's all open to interpretation anyway. Otherwise, everyone would agree, wouldn't they?
Me: Not everyone, especially with misunderstanding.
The entirety of scripture isn't subjective... especially historical and prophetic aspects.
If we were reading from the original Hebrew and Greek and didn't have any confusion on certain words or phrases through the different translations, most Christians who lived by the bible would likely agree. But that's why studying is essential if one seeks to fully understand scripture.
Julie: What nonsense. People can't even agree on the most basic verses in the bible. Not to mention that the whole thing is a work of fiction anyway, so it hardly matters what context you take it in.
Me: And it's statements like that which qualify you as a flamer, not a debater.
You're stating no point, making no argument other than lashing out at scripture because of your own emotions/experiences.
If you're going to repudiate anything you hear, what was the point of posting to begin with? You're attempting to do nothing other than bash on Christians when you don't even fully grasp the basics of Christianity in a reasonable sense. And even when you do learn something, you immediately mock and dismiss it.
Sadly, you're not the first anti-Christian I've met that has the same demeanor. I'm not going to continue if you're unwilling to listen - anything I say obviously falls on cold stone. Have a nice day.
At least the Spirit's putting it on my heart to cut things off when dealing with certain people ^^;; When I was much younger spiritually, I would have tried to cut her down one piece at a time... Just goes to show how the Holy Spirit can change a person's attitude... Even in heated situations.
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:38 am
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:25 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:55 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:43 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:14 pm
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Julie made a lot of truth claims. Challenge her basis for truth. Unless she starts with God, she has no basis for morality or knowledge. Presuppositional apologetics. If you'd like to look into it a bit more, I'd suggest checking out www.ProofThatGodExists.org. That would be Sye Ten Bruggencate's website. He was who I first started learning this apologetic from. I hope this will be useful to anyone who might view it. I'm glad you're on there interacting with unbelievers, brother. Preach Christ Jesus and defend the faith.
EDIT: My wife suggested I share the video from the first place we heard Sye talk on this. Here it is:
_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkQvDsBr3l4
_
We were there in that crowd. I had already held to Romans 1, but reasoning with people in this way was a new thing to me. Frankly... I didn't understand a lot of it. The more I've listened and put it to use over time? The better the grasp I've gained on it, by God's grace.
That sermon was actually an event for the 500, a group we joined to preach at the Reason Rally, a gathering of atheists in DC back in like 2012. I believe it was the night before we hit the streets. We were very nervous: first time we had hit the streets like that, and it was of course quite hostile. I've learned a lot since then, again, by God's grace. This apologetic is one thing that has helped teach me how to think, as opposed to being told simply what to think.
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:29 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:21 pm
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Astra Green Well Julie automatically lost the moment she tried to shift the goal posts and refuse to back up her statement with evidence. Why? Because the burden of proof was placed on her. That's the moment you have to back up your claim with whatever evidence backing you.I consider failure to provide something substantial that's not "Well I think or I feel" to be conceding. And I do consider the Bible to be a source especially when you're debating verses and context of those verses in the same manner that I would consider Lord of the Flies to be a source when you're talking about the de-evolution of Jack and the other boys and other contextual things. It's relevant to the subject at hand. Then again I learned how to have a debate in high school and I'm a M&R.
And I've run into this in the Believers vs Non-Believers chatroom on Paltalk which can be worse because you throw in the microphone and people verbally saying their points. (Course there's like 100 people at a time so trying to just post evidence gets tricky.)
And really you do have atheists that have read the Bible, own the Bible, have studied the older dead languages and/or taken part in apologetic studies, so they'll use the Bible as evidence to disprove or help prove things. (Which is interesting and confusing if you haven't done that latter. I see two people debating in apologetics and it kills my brain trying to keep up. But you learn interesting things from it. Whilst feeling like an idiot)
Course for me, I'm the type of person that will go to a site like Blue Letter Bible and throw in not just the verse itself but remove it and put in the exact chapter and read it in full. And then paraphrase what the whole thing actually is referring to. Which tends to upset people and thne they say I don't know what I'm talking about or how I know x.
And at this point those who are anti-theistic (in terms of atheists who are just anti-religion. You'll find a lot of atheists tend not to care really about Christianity or religions. They just simply don't believe in a deity and really could care less.) are really...ignorant of everything considered. They're the first to pull a personal attack if you disagree and are ableist (in which they equate religion or simple deity belief/ worship to be akin to mental illness).
Typically this is when the debate goes south and I just block people. I have gotten heat for blocking people every time I step into the SF because people think I'm anti-opinion or hearing their side of truth. No I'm just anti-toxicity. If you can't conduct a debate like a civilized adult and prove to me certain things or anything then I just have no business talking to you and want you to disappear.
Haha...I rambled.. redface
TL;DR these aren't debates but an immature way of trying to say "Look I can pee farther than you, therefore I'm better. I'm right, you're wrong. Neener, neener.."(I know that's vulgar but that's the nicest form I can say what I was thinking in my head.)
Haha xD I enjoyed reading that~ Thanks for the input :3
But yeah... I tend to just let a debate go as far as the person's willing to be reasonable and let Christians use the foundation of their faith to back their claims... Julie, on the other hand, is ALWAYS this way.
There have been multiple instances where someone will post on the page's wall questioning scripture and she'll be the very first post. ANYTHING having to do with scripture is immediately countered by her trademark "it's a work of fiction, so why bother?" type statements. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:26 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:29 pm
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Micah Seven Eighteen Julie made a lot of truth claims. Challenge her basis for truth. Unless she starts with God, she has no basis for morality or knowledge. Presuppositional apologetics. If you'd like to look into it a bit more, I'd suggest checking out www.ProofThatGodExists.org. That would be Sye Ten Bruggencate's website. He was who I first started learning this apologetic from. I hope this will be useful to anyone who might view it. I'm glad you're on there interacting with unbelievers, brother. Preach Christ Jesus and defend the faith. EDIT: My wife suggested I share the video from the first place we heard Sye talk on this. Here it is: _ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkQvDsBr3l4_ We were there in that crowd. I had already held to Romans 1, but reasoning with people in this way was a new thing to me. Frankly... I didn't understand a lot of it. The more I've listened and put it to use over time? The better the grasp I've gained on it, by God's grace. That sermon was actually an event for the 500, a group we joined to preach at the Reason Rally, a gathering of atheists in DC back in like 2012. I believe it was the night before we hit the streets. We were very nervous: first time we had hit the streets like that, and it was of course quite hostile. I've learned a lot since then, again, by God's grace. This apologetic is one thing that has helped teach me how to think, as opposed to being told simply what to think.
Sadly, Presuppositional Apologetics don't have as much sway on the people in that group from what I've seen... Especially Julie.
Look at how she was trying to argue God's creation of good and evil... She'll twist not only scripture, but God's nature to support her claim. And then when you try to correct her with scriptural backing, suddenly she falls back on that famous "work of fiction" claim.
It's like eating soup with a fork. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:31 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:36 pm
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Jewelies Looks like how debates go in Site Feedback here or the comments section on Youtube. ^_^;; Why are people so incapable of having a reasonable and/or respectful debate or discussion on opposing views? I find it interesting everyone had no qualms telling you you were wrong and that you had no evidence Christianity is true, but couldn't or wouldn't offer up any 'evidence' of their own that Christianity is false. Unfortunately, there are people like this everywhere who will readily and blindly attack Christians and hate Christianity. It's best just to pray for them, because it's likely that anger and lashing out against Christianity comes from being hurt.
I'll be the first to admit as a Christian that I catch myself in the act of hypocrisy on a daily basis. I'm human, my mind is imperfect, so yeah... No surprise...
But the majority of these atheists can't even begin to see their own hypocrisy. It's really disgusting, to put it mildly...
Though, I'm not new to debates... I've dealt with plenty more people like Julie, unfortunately... It's rare that you find someone who can actually debate in a reasonable manner. If I can find it, I'll post the rather lengthy exchange I had with someone who was actually able to support his thesis, rather than simply cut down scripture... It may take a while, beings it wasn't in that group and it was about a year ago xD |
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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:48 am
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Novus Initium Micah Seven Eighteen Julie made a lot of truth claims. Challenge her basis for truth. Unless she starts with God, she has no basis for morality or knowledge. Presuppositional apologetics. If you'd like to look into it a bit more, I'd suggest checking out www.ProofThatGodExists.org. That would be Sye Ten Bruggencate's website. He was who I first started learning this apologetic from. I hope this will be useful to anyone who might view it. I'm glad you're on there interacting with unbelievers, brother. Preach Christ Jesus and defend the faith. EDIT: My wife suggested I share the video from the first place we heard Sye talk on this. Here it is: _ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkQvDsBr3l4_ We were there in that crowd. I had already held to Romans 1, but reasoning with people in this way was a new thing to me. Frankly... I didn't understand a lot of it. The more I've listened and put it to use over time? The better the grasp I've gained on it, by God's grace. That sermon was actually an event for the 500, a group we joined to preach at the Reason Rally, a gathering of atheists in DC back in like 2012. I believe it was the night before we hit the streets. We were very nervous: first time we had hit the streets like that, and it was of course quite hostile. I've learned a lot since then, again, by God's grace. This apologetic is one thing that has helped teach me how to think, as opposed to being told simply what to think. Sadly, Presuppositional Apologetics don't have as much sway on the people in that group from what I've seen... Especially Julie. Look at how she was trying to argue God's creation of good and evil... She'll twist not only scripture, but God's nature to support her claim. And then when you try to correct her with scriptural backing, suddenly she falls back on that famous "work of fiction" claim. It's like eating soup with a fork.
_
Romans 1:18-32
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
_
According to the Bible, who needs evidence that God exists? No one. Men already have evidence that God exists, but they lie to themselves about His existence. Trying to give them more evidence with the intent to convince them as if they have no evidence leads to ignoring the Bible we say we believe. If they reject God's sufficient evidence, how will they be convinced because you give them more evidence?
We do apologetics to defend the faith and to expose the absurdities in the unbeliever's worldview: we cannot convert anyone, only God can do that. Proof does not equal persuasion. Let me give some demonstration here, taking some of the things Julie said:
_
For her first statement, she tried to make a challenge that is based on a false dichotomy, which is a logical fallacy. She said that we would curse God if we were not afraid of Hell and if we don't, we are afraid of Hell, so that is our motivation. She limited our options when there are more options: we won't curse God because we love Him. Her challenge has an irrational basis.
Let's move on to a truth claim she makes. She says that she doesn't need evidence that Satan is a control device; it's derived from common sense, reading the Bible and using your brain. So, ask her if she relies on her memory, senses and reasoning to come to this conclusion (she did admit this already, but you may want her to follow where you're going). If she's honest, she'll admit this, in which case you can ask "How do you know your memory, senses and reasoning are valid?" If she's honest, she is appealing to her own memory, senses and reasoning to validate her memory, senses and reasoning. This is a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning and thus it exposes her worldview as an irrational one.
At this point, you have succeeded in defending the faith and exposing the unbeliever's worldview as absurd. Does this mean she'll agree with you and acknowledge the absurdity of her own worldview? No, it doesn't. Proof does not equal persuasion. You can't feel like you've failed because you didn't change someone's mind: only God can save men. Men are not rejecting God due to a lack of evidence, but instead it's because they love their sin and hate God: the issue isn't an intellectual one but a moral one. All we can do is be faithful, defend the faith and share the Gospel, which is what God uses to save men, brother. |
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Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:50 pm
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Novus Initium Haha xD I enjoyed reading that~ Thanks for the input :3 But yeah... I tend to just let a debate go as far as the person's willing to be reasonable and let Christians use the foundation of their faith to back their claims... Julie, on the other hand, is ALWAYS this way. There have been multiple instances where someone will post on the page's wall questioning scripture and she'll be the very first post. ANYTHING having to do with scripture is immediately countered by her trademark "it's a work of fiction, so why bother?" type statements.
No problem! It's what I'm here for, mild comedic relief :p But in all seriousness I was going to break up your post the good ol' M&R way but that chat log...so painfully long and full of stupid on her part.
That's the thing with the internet, especially on forums like Gaia, social networking sites like facebook and chatrooms like Myspace Christian Chat (yes there was a thing) and Paltalk. You're going to get those that want to say they're right and that your source book is "fictional" (going by that logic everything written is fictional because it's written by other people)
I'd trip her up and use the Jewish or Aramaic Bibles. |
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