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 Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:27 am
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Quote: Adam sinned, therefore all men are condemned to death. Rom.5:12,19; 1 Cor.15:22 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins. Deut.24:16; 2 Ki.14:6; 2 Chr.25:4; Ezek.18:20
1. Yes, they do.
(Exodus 20:5)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Deuteronomy 5:9)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Exodus 34:6-7)--"Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
(1 Cor. 15:22)--"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
2. No, they don't.
(Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
Exodus 20:5 is, of course, among the ten commandments. The Ten Commandments are arranged in covenant form. The Suzerain-Vassal treaty pattern of the ancient near east is followed in the Ten Commandments. This arrangement included an introduction of who was making the covenant (Exodus 20:2), what the covenant maker had done (20:2), laws (20:3-17), rewards (20:6,12), and punishments (20:5, 7).
Covenantally, when a father misleads his family, the effects of that misleading are often felt for generations. This is because the father is being covenantally unfaithful, and God has stipulated that there are punishments to breaking the covenant with God. That is the case with these verses that deal with the sins visited upon the children. If a father rejects the covenant of God and takes his family into sin and rejects God, the children will suffer the consequences--often for several generations. Whether or not this is fair is not the issue. Sin is in the world; consequences of sin affected many generations.
On the other hand, Deuteronomy 24:16 is dealing with legal matters as the context 24:6-19 shows. Ezekiel 18:20 is merely recounting the Law of the Pentateuch. Therefore, the context of the second set of verses is dealing with the legality aspect within the Jewish court system. The previous set of verses deal with God visiting upon the descendants of the rebellious the consequences of the rebellious fathers' sins.
As a further note on this issue, there is a concept in the Bible called Federal Headship. This means that the male, the father, represents the family. We see this in the garden of Adam and Eve. She was the first one to eat of the fruit; she was the first one to sin. However, the Bible states that sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5)--not Eve. This is because Adam was the Federal Head of all mankind. Furthermore we see in the Hebrews 7:7-10 the following:
"But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8And in this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on. 9And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, 10for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him."
In the verses in Hebrews we see that Levi, who was a descendant of Abraham, paid tithes to Melchizedek while still in the loins, "seed," of his father Abraham even though Levi was not yet alive. In other words, Abraham, the father, represented his descendants. As Abraham paid tithes, so also did Levi. Therefore, we can see the concept of Federal Headship represented in the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. We can conclude that God will visit the iniquities of the fathers upon the descendants because the fathers have failed to be covenantally faithful. Yet, we see in the other verses a declaration of legality in dealing with people. There is no contradiction.
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:43 am
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Quote: God is vengeful. Gen.4:15; Deut.32:35; Ezek.25:14-17; Nah.1:2; Rom.12:19; Heb.10:30 God is a warrior. Ex.15:3; Is.42:13; Ps.24:8 God is a consuming fire. Deut.4:24; Deut.9:3; Heb.12:29 God is jealous. Ex.20:5; Ex.34:14; Deut.4:24; Deut.5:9; Deut.6:15; Deut.29:20; Deut.32:21 God murders and kills. Num.31:7,17; Deut.20:16,17; Josh.10:40; Jud.14:19; Ezek.9:5,6; Num.11:33 God is love and peace. 2 Cor.13:11,14; 1 Jn.4:8,16; Rom.15:33 God never changes. Mal.3:6
Romans 15:33; Isaiah 2:4 and Exodus 15:3; Joel 3:9-10
God of Peace
(Isaiah 2:4)--"And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war."
(Romans 15:33)--"Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen."
God of War
(Exodus 15:3)--"The Lord is a warrior; the Lord is His name."
(Joel 3:9-10)--"Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare a war; rouse the mighty men! Let all the soldiers draw near, let them come up! Beat your plowshares into swords, 10And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, “I am a mighty man.”
Anyone can take verses out of context and compare them to other verses out of context and get a "contradiction." But, context is sacrificed in this manner and along with it, truth is lost. In Isaiah 2:4, God is giving a prophet announcement of a future time when He will be the one who settles disputes and there will be no more war. In Romans 15:33, it is simply said that God is a God of peace. He is.
Yet we have the verses that show God's judgmental side. In Exodus 15:3 we see God as a warrior. But the context is the destruction of the Egyptian Army. As we all know, Egypt had enslaved the Israelite nation and God simply became their warrior and delivered them. In Joel 3:9-10 we see a prophetic statement as the book of Joel clearly is prophetic in nature. In other words, there will come a time when it is required to fight.
There is no contradiction for God to be both the Lord who battles unrighteousness and also loves peace. This is just as true with people, who are really peaceful by nature, but will fight when the time requires it.
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I also object to the term 'murder'. To be a murderer is commonly understood as someone who has taken someones life unlawfully, without just cause. God has both law and right on His side to reclaim it.
Psalm 24:1
Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;
PUNISHMENT AND VENGEANCE
Letting evil go unpunished, and not avenging injustice would be evil and unloving. It would be unloving to not let evil have consequences. |
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:53 am
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Quote: Elijah went up to heaven. 2 Ki.2:11 A man known to Paul went up to heaven. 2 Cor.12:2-4 Enoch went "to heaven". Gen.5:24; Heb.11:5 Only "Jesus" ever went up to heaven. Jn.3:13
"No One has Ascended to Heaven"
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.
When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus regarding the need to be “born again” (John 3:1-8.), He also sought to impress upon the mind of this ruler of the Jews that His words were from above. Jesus spoke of spiritual things that no man knew (Matthew 13:35; cf. 7:28-29; Luke 2:47). One of the reasons Jesus gave for being able to expound on such spiritual truths is found in John 3:13. Here, the apostle John recorded Jesus as having said to Nicodemus, “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man” (John 3:13). According to the skeptic, this statement by Jesus is severely flawed. Since the Old Testament reveals that Elijah escaped physical death and “went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11; cf. Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5), allegedly Jesus could not truthfully tell Nicodemus, “No one has ascended to heaven.” Is the skeptic right?
For Jesus’ statement to contradict what the Bible says about Elijah, one first must presuppose that Jesus was referring to the exact same place to which Elijah ascended. For a contradiction to exist between two Bible passages, one must prove that the one doing the speaking (or writing) is referring to the same person, place, or thing (see Jevons, 1928, p. 11 cool . Can the skeptic be certain that the “heaven” to which Jesus referred, is the same one into which the body of Elijah ascended? The words “heaven” or “heavens” appear in our English Bibles about 700 times. And yet, in many of the passages where “heaven(s)” is found, the inspired writers were not discussing the spiritual heaven with which we most often associate the word. For example, in Genesis 1 and 2, the Hebrew word for heaven appears 15 times in 14 verses. Yet in every instance, the word is referring to something besides the spiritual heaven where God dwells. The word “heaven” (Hebrew shamayim, Greek ouranos) is used by Bible writers in basically three different ways. It is used to refer to the atmospheric heavens in which the airplanes fly, the birds soar, and the clouds gather (Genesis 1:20; Jeremiah 4:25; Matthew 6:26, ASV). “Heaven(s)” also is used in the Bible when referring to the firmament where we find the Sun, Moon, and stars—the sidereal heavens, or outer space (Genesis 1:14-15; Psalm 19:4,6; Isaiah 13:10). The third “heaven” frequently mentioned in Scripture is the spiritual heaven in which Jehovah dwells (Psalm 2:4; Hebrews 9:24), and where, one day, the faithful will live forevermore (Revelation 21:18-23; John 14:1-3; cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2-3). [NOTE: The word “firmament” (meaning expanse) is used in the same three ways “heaven” is used. Thus, what is said about heaven also can be said of the firmament (cf. Genesis 1:20; Genesis 1:17; Psalm 150:1).] The context of John 3 clearly indicates that Jesus is referring to the spiritual heavens wherein God dwells (cf. John 3:27). 2 Kings 2:11, however, is not as clear. The writer of 2 Kings easily could have meant that the body of Elijah miraculously ascended up high into the air never to been seen by anyone on Earth again. Nowhere does the text indicate that he left Earth at that moment to dwell in God’s presence. He definitely went somewhere, but we have no evidence that he was transferred to the actual throne room of God Almighty.
The Bible indicates that when God’s faithful servants leave this Earth, their spirits are taken to dwell in a place referred to as paradise (or “the bosom of Abraham”—Luke 16:19-31). Recall when Jesus was fastened to the cross, and told the penitent thief, “Today, you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). The word paradise is of Persian derivation, and means a “garden” or “park.” Where was it that Jesus and the thief went? Neither of them went to heaven to be with God the Father on that very day, for in John 20:17 after His resurrection, Jesus reassured Mary that He had not yet ascended to the Father. So where did Jesus and the thief go after dying on the cross? Peter gave the answer to that question in his sermon in Acts 2 when he quoted Psalm 16. Acts 2:27 states that God would not abandon Christ’s soul in hades, nor allow Christ to undergo decay. So while Christ’s body was placed in a tomb for three days, Christ’s spirit went to hades. [NOTE: The word hades occurs ten times in the New Testament, and always refers to the unseen realm of the dead—the receptacle of disembodied spirits where all people who die await for the Lord’s return and judgment. One part of hades, where Jesus and the thief went, is known as paradise.] Peter argued that David, who penned Psalm 16, was not referring to himself, since David’s body was still in the tomb (Acts 2:29), and his spirit was still in the hadean realm (Acts 2:34). Acts 2 indicates that a faithful servant of God does not go directly to be with God the Father when he dies; rather, he goes to a holding place in hades known as paradise—the same place where Abraham went after he died (Luke 16), and the same place where the spirit of Elijah went after he was caught up from the Earth. In short, the Bible does not teach that Elijah left Earth to begin immediately dwelling in the presence of the Father (where Jesus was before His incarnation—John 1:1). Thus, technically he did not ascend to the “place” whence Jesus came.
For the sake of argument, consider for a moment that the skeptic is right, and that Elijah’s spirit did not go to paradise, but was taken to dwell in the very presence of God. Could Jesus still have made the statement He did, and yet not be inaccurate? I believe so. Notice again the response to Nicodemus’ question, “How can these things be?” Jesus said: “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man” (John 3:12-13, emp. added). It may be that Jesus meant nothing more than that no one has ever gone up to heaven “by his own act” or “on his own terms” (see Bullinger, 1888, pp. 281-282). Elijah and Enoch had been taken by God, which is different than freely ascending up into heaven on one’s own terms. Furthermore, Jesus’ words, “No one has ascended to heaven,” also could have meant that no one has ever gone up into heaven to then return and speak firsthand about what he saw, and to spread the same saving message that Jesus preached. Jesus was emphasizing to Nicodemus how no one on Earth at that time was revealing such spiritual truths as Christ was, because no one ever had ascended to heaven to then return and talk about what he had seen and learned. Such seems to have been the main point Jesus was making in John 3:13. No one on Earth had seen what Jesus had seen, and thus could not teach what He taught.
Truly, the skeptic’s accusation that Jesus either lied or was mistaken regarding his comment to Nicodemus about no one having ascended to heaven, is unsubstantiated. Perhaps the word heaven used in 2 Kings 2:11 was not meant to convey the idea of the spiritual heavens in which God dwells. Or, considering the Bible’s teaching on departed spirits of the righteous being in a holding place known as paradise, and not in the actual presence of Almighty God, Jesus could have meant that no person has ever ascended to the throne room of God from which He came. Furthermore, it also is interesting to note that Nicodemus, being “a man of the Pharisees” (John 3:1), and thus one who would have been very well acquainted with the details of the Old Testament, did not respond to Jesus by saying, “Wait a minute Rabbi. What about Elijah and Enoch? Isn’t it written in the law and prophets that they ascended to heaven?” Surely, had Jesus contradicted something in the law and the prophets, it would have been brought to His attention, especially by a Pharisee. Yet, the apostle John never records such a statement.
Admittedly, at first glance, it might appear as if the statements, “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11), and, “No man has ascended to heaven” (John 3:13), are contradictory. However, when a person considers all of the possible solutions to the alleged problem, he must admit that such an interpretation is unjustified.
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:13 am
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Quote: God does not change his mind. Numb.23:19; Is.40:8; Jms.1:17 God does change his mind. Gen.6:6,7; Ex.32:14; Num.14:20; 1 Sam.15:35; 2 Sam.24:16
Does God change His mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
These verses indicate that God isn't the sort to flip sides. But what, it is asked, of these verses?
Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
2 Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50, Genesis 18:23-33.
So what is the answer? It comes by stages:
The attribute of omniscience, of knowing all things, must be clarified. Judeo-Christian belief holds that God is timeless. Past, present and future for God can be seen as a whole.
This much is commonly asserted. What is sometimes not asserted as a corollary is that God also knows how things would turn out if differently had a different path been taken at every potential choice-making nexus. God knew you would turn left at Main Street this morning; but He also knows what would have happened had you turned right.
A "prophet" in the Bible meant more than simply "a predictor of the future". A prophet was also a messenger and an exhorter. His words were never set in stone. A key verse for this is Jer. 18:7-10 --
If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
With this verse, and the fact that the role of a prophet was more than just as a predictor, it is quite clear why it is pointless to object when, for example, God withholds judgment upon Nineveh (Jonah 3:10). We may read it as a definitive prophecy, but it would be understood by the hearers as exhortation allowing for the disaster to be avoided.
Following ancient rules of rhetoric and the constraints of oral communication, as well as the nature of the Semitic mindset which typically expressed itself in extremes, it would be less appropriate for a prophet making a popular declaration to delineate possible exceptions in his general proclamation. Such side-tracking would make his message less memorable and effective in an era when retention and effect was far more important in the short term than detailed analysis.
G. B. Caird in The Language and Imagery of the Bible [112ff] uses several passages cited typically by Skeptics in this context as examples of "prophetic hyperbole" intended to express matters in an unqualified way, yet hardly meaning that there was no chance to escape judgment.
Finally, let us make it clear what it means to say that God does not "change". This does not mean that God is static, never does anything, or never says anything. Nor can it be asserted to mean that God does not alter stated plans in reaction to human freewill choices. Our quote from Jeremiah shows that well enough. We will find that the references to God not "changing" cannot hold up such a narrow interpretation.
Let's go now to an examination of verses that have been used in this argument.
Gen. 6:6-7 -- This (along with another, 1 Sam 15:11, regarding God "repenting" over the choice of Saul) is the primary hinge point of the Skeptical argument alleging contradiction. But let's look at that word "repent" more closely. It is nacham, and it means to be sorry, grieve, or to pity.
Now here is a question: Is it not possible to grieve and feel sorry over something -- even if we know that it is going to happen, even if we cause it to happen? Of course it is. And there is no reason why this cannot also apply to God, as we shall see.
Gen. 18:23-33. We won't quote this passage in entirety; suffice to say: It is the incident in which Abraham intercedes with God on behalf of Sodom, asking Him to spare the city in a classic ANE "marketplace bartering" conversation which probably served to give Abraham some idea what this new God of "his" was like.
Did God here offer to change His mind? Let's put it this way. The story, and Jeremiah above, indicates that with intercession and/or change, God will make a change in an announced plan. But if God is omniscient, then He knew in advance what Abraham would ask for -- and knew also what the end result would be. (Note that God asks, clearly rhetorically [18:17], whether He should tell Abraham what His plans are, and that the number of possible righteous goes only to 10 -- the next logical increment, 5, would have been less than the number of Lot's family of 6: Lot, his wife, his two daughters, and their prospective grooms. In essence Abraham is pleading for Lot's safety here.)
God dealt with Abraham in human terms for his own sake; but even before the conversation started, the matter was decided. God did not change nor compromise, but in fact, in feigning ignorance (v. 21), dropped a very strong hint that intercession on Abraham's part was desired.
This incident was more than a typical ANE barter-exchange, then: It was also a tone-setting meeting laying down the terms upon which God would relate to His covenant people. He knew what they would do; but He also wanted them to come to Him in their need. (And in any event, since all 6 members of Lot's family eventually fouled up, it was proven that there were no righteous people in Sodom on that day.)
This general principle of intercession -- which of course was always foreknown -- can be seen in other cites commonly used in this argument: Exodus 32:10-14; Numbers 16:20-35 and 44-50; 2 Kings 20:1-7, and Amos 7:3, 6. But let's look at some other key cites.
Numbers 23:19 -- The oracle of Balaam needs to be looked at it two ways. First, what of this word repent? I think it is obvious that it must be read in a different sense here -- "grieve" just doesn't fit the bill.
Second, the oracle itself notes that there were conditions for the blessing (v. 21). This pretty obviously indicates that if the conditions change, a "Jeremiah 18 reversal" will follow. (cf. also 1 Sam. 15:29, Ezek. 24:14. Moreover, keep in mind that this is said by Balaam, who is trying to keep himself out of trouble with Balak for giving out a prophecy blessing Israel rather than cursing it.)
Malachi 3:6 -- This is a "no change" verse, and we should immediately remember what we have said above about such things. "Change" does not refer to simply any possible change, but has specific contexts.
Here, it is said in the context of maintaining the covenant promise of preservation to the Israelites in spite of their sins. A covenant agreement is a serious thing -- it is a written contract. This was an unconditional promise, unlike those under the Jeremiah 18 clause, and God will not break it, and has not (though the Israelites did).
James 1:17 -- Finally, there is this reach into the NT. But again, context makes for clear: James is discussing the ways of men and their fickle, changing morals and treasures (1:2-16). This is the regard in which he asserts that there is neither turning or variation in God, and we are not justified in reading more than that into it.
It is not a statement of "ontological immutability" but one concerned with "the unwavering character of God's faithfulness." (See Donald J. Versput, "James 1:17 and the Jewish Morning Prayers." Novum Testamentum 35, 1997, 177-191.)
Objection: God specifically states that he spared Nineveh because of their repentance (Jonah 3:10). So what about 4:11?
Jonah 4:11 simply reflects an expression of concern for the people and animals of Nineveh. It has virtually nothing to do with God's ultimate reason for withholding destruction as related in 3:10. If God had no concern for them, then presumably he wouldn't have been concerned with whether or not they repented and Jonah would not have even been sent in the first place. It gives the reason why God warned the Ninevites in the first place, not why they were spared.
There are occasions in which God withholds a promised judgment even when those he had threatened did not change their ways at all. See Ex. 32:9-14.
"Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them." The judgment here is conditional, and not conditional on the Israelites as a whole, but on their human representative Moses. If Moses leaves God alone, then the Israelites will taste judgment. Moses intercedes, as God (no doubt) expected him to.
Contextually we find that the reason for the threat is given in Exodus 32:7,8 where the Israelites not only worship an idol in the shape of a calf, but misplace credit for their deliverance from Egypt.
Jonah himself apparently understood his warnings as absolute statements, because when God fails to destroy the city as promised, he becomes very angry and frustrated (4:1,4) and asks God to take his life (4:3,8.). Why would he have done this if he meant his warnings to be conditional statements?
Simply put, even without the Semitic context, the conclusion reached does not follow from the evidence. Jonah from the first had a bad attitude about his role in preaching to the Ninevites. As Jonah himself says (Jonah 4:2,3): "That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity."
It is clear from Jonah's "attitude" that his bitterness was the result of God sparing the city even though the Ninevites had repented. In other words his response (as exemplified by 4:2-3) is, "This has been a big waste of time, and I resent it." He didn't care for the Ninevites as persons (a reaction most likely induced by the Assyrians being the Jews' political enemies).
We also have a pretty clear contextual clue that the Ninevites took the prophecy of doom as conditional. The text affirms that they believed Jonah. So why not move away or get out of town? They don't move away, however; they fast, don sackcloth, repent, and then they wait. Resigned to their fate, or hoping for mercy?
God can, by definition, cause things to turn out any way he wishes; again by definition, he can never be forced to choose a course of action with substandard results.
Can an omnipotent being, by definition, cause things to turn out any way it wishes? Actually, no. An omnipotent being cannot alter a free will choice to obtain a desired result (this results in both A and not-A being true at the same time and in the same sense, which is a contradiction). Can an omnipotent being be forced to choose a course of action with substandard results? No, and what of it? It is incumbent on Skeptics to establish that our omnipotent being (God) chose a course of action which obtained comparatively substandard results.
-JPH
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:57 am
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Quote: Abraham saw God. Gen.12:7; Gen.17:1; Gen.26:2 Isaac saw God. Ge. 26:1-3 Jacob saw God. Gen.32:30 Moses saw God. Ex.3:16; Ex.33:11 Job saw God. Job 42:5 Amos saw God. Amos 7: 7 Many saw God. Ex.24:9-11 No man can see God and live. Ex.33:20; Jn.1:18; 1 Jn.4:12
Has anyone seen God or not?
Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:11, Exodus 6:2-3; and John 1:18
Has seen
(Gen. 17:1)--“Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless;"
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3)--"God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11)--“Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6-8.)--“He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7"Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"
(Acts 7:2), "And he [Stephen] said, 'Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran . . . '"
Has not seen
(Exodus 33:20)--“But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
(John 1:18.)--“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37)--“"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46)--"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16)--“He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”
It is evident above that God was seen. But, considering the "can't-see-God" verses, some would understandably argue that there would be a contradiction. One explanation offered is that the people were seeing visions, or dreams, or the Angel of the LORD (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21) and not really God Himself. But the problem is that the verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. They say that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Exodus 6:2-3).
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty; and at least Moses saw God and not in a vision or dream--as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding--not in the Bible, which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus' own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead, and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:00 pm
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Quote: God confused the language at Babel. Gen.11:9 God is not the author of confusion. 1 Cor.14:33
If God is not the author of confusion, what about the Tower of Babel?
1. Confused languages (Gen. 11:8-9)--"So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth."
2.Not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)--"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."
This isn't a difficult issue at all. On one hand, God is not the author of confusion: "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints," (1 Cor. 14:33). The context of this verse is dealing with the gift of tongues as were spoken in Christian churches in its early years. Foreigners would attend these churches and hear their own languages being spoken. There would often be interpretations of these tongues. Also, Christians would be over eager in their use of various tongues and this would often lead to confusion as people did not do things in order. Therefore, in the immediate verses prior to (1 Cor. 14:33), Paul had just given instruction on the proper use of the tongues in the church, a use which stated order and sequence. The goal was not to produce a confusion among the hearers so that they would not understand the gospel. Instead, it was to produce an orderly service of worship.
The context of the Tower of Babel is quite different. The people of the earth were attempting to build a tower that would " . . . reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name; lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth," (Gen. 11:4). The sin of the people was their great pride. They were seeking to remain one group in one location under their own efforts. Ultimately, this was a defiance of God's proclamation to fill the earth (Gen. 9:1). God wanted them to spread out. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth," (Gen. 11:8-9). Therefore, there is no contradiction since each is a different context and a different subject.
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:15 pm
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Quote: It was impossible for God and Judah together to defeat the enemy. Jud.1:19 Nothing is impossible for God. Lk.1:37
Can God stop iron chariots?
Gepubliceerd januari 28, 2013
No, He can’t
19 And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Judges 1:19 KJV
Yes, He can
13 Sisera called together all his chariots, nine hundred iron chariots, and all the people who were with him, from Harosheth-hagoyim to the river Kishon.
14 Deborah said to Barak, “Arise! For this is the day in which the Lord has given Sisera into your hands; behold, the Lord has gone out before you.” So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men following him.
15 The Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and all his army with the edge of the sword before Barak; and Sisera alighted from his chariot and fled away on foot.
16 But Barak pursued the chariots and the army as far as Harosheth-hagoyim, and all the army of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword; not even one was left.
Judges 4:13-16 NASBu
SAB (Skeptics Annotated Bible) Contradiction 228
Intro
The SAB-critic has searched diligently for an impressing Bible Contradiction and, he thought he had found one in two seemingly conflicting passages in the book of Judges concerning iron chariots.
In the beginning of the book an overview is given of the history shortly after Joshua’s passing away. How did the Israelites survive in their conflicts with the Canaanites? In this part of the book it is told that the tribe of Judah was able to take possession of the hill country, but they were not able to take the valley … as they were confronted with iron chariots. Apparently they were too heavy for them.
Who wasn’t able? God or Judah?
The passage Judges 1:19 has been taken from the KJV translation as it is the most literal rendering and useful in this discussion. In the King James Version it seems as if God (he) was not able to drive out the inhabitants of the valley because of the iron chariots. However, also the King James translators didn’t use a capital letter for “he”. They clearly pointed to Judah with “he” and not to God. And rightly so as this information is given in a series of military operations of the tribe of Judah. And so: Sorry for the SAB critic: again no real Bible Contradiction.
Barak’s victory
One may ask: “But how was it possible then that later the Israel army consisting of merely infantry could prevail over an army with nine hundred iron chariots?” Barak gathered his soldiers on the mount Tabor near the river Kishon, as Deborah had ordered him to do. And during the battle the river became a wild stream of water (Judges 5:21) that made it impossible for the Canaanites (under command of Sisera) to use their iron chariots properly; they had to leave them. A great victory for Barak and his army.
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:26 pm
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Quote: God is sometimes angry. Deut.6:15; Deut.9:7,8; Deut.29:20; Deut.32:22. Anger is a sin. Mt.5:22.
It would be foolish to ignore the passages in Scripture that talk about God’s anger. Yes, God does get angry; there are many examples in the Bible of this. He “displays his wrath every day” (Psalm 7:11).
However, we must not equate God’s anger with our own human experiences of that emotion (that is why the author of this contradiction is confused - Garland). We must look again to the Bible. Ephesians 4:26–27 tells us it is possible to experience anger but not sin. As God cannot sin, we know that His anger is righteous, unlike the common experience of anger in ourselves. As James 1:20 says, “Human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.”
The context of the verses of God getting angry reveals why He gets angry. God gets angry when there is a violation of His character. God is righteous, just, and holy, and none of these attributes can be compromised (Exodus 20:4–6; Isaiah 42:8.). God was angry with the nation of Israel and with Israel’s kings every time they turned away from obeying Him (e.g., 1 Kings 11:9–10; 17:18.). The wicked practices of the nations surrounding Israel, such as child sacrifice and sexual perversion, aroused God’s anger to the point He commanded Israel to completely destroy them—every man, woman, child, and animal—to remove wickedness from the land (Deuteronomy 7:1–6). Just as a parent becomes angry at anything that would hurt his children, so God’s anger is directed at that which would harm His people and their relationship with Him. “‘As surely as I live,’ declares the Sovereign LORD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live’” (Ezekiel 33:11).
In the New Testament, Jesus got angry with the religious teachers and leaders of that day for using religion for their own gain and keeping people in bondage (John 2:13–16; Mark 3:4–5). Romans 1:18 tells us God’s anger, or wrath, comes against “the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” So God gets angry at the wickedness in people, and He opposes that wickedness in an effort to turn them from evil, that they may find true life and freedom in Him. Even in His anger, God’s motivation is love for people; to restore the relationship that sin destroyed.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-get-angry.html#ixzz3ZlWY9nTl |
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:43 pm
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:48 pm
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Quote: God shows no mercy to some. Ex.4:21; Josh.11:20 God is merciful to all. Deut.4:31; Lk.6:36; Jms.5:11
God shows us all a general mercy.
Matt 5:45 (NET)
5:45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Psalm 145:9 (NET)
145:9 The Lord is good to all, and has compassion on all he has made.
Psalm 119:64 (NET)
119:64 O Lord, your loyal love fills the earth. Teach me your statutes!
Luke 6:35,36 (NET)
6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to ungrateful and evil people. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful
Another one of His general mercies (One applies to us all) is that He doesn't destroy us immediately, but lets us enjoy life, sun, our families, work and other privileges.
Joshua 11:20
For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
Even the the inhabitants living in the land Israel was given received mercy up until a certain point. God does not destroy innocent nations...
Genesis 20:3-5
Abraham, Sarah and Abimelech
…3But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." 4Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a nation, even though blameless? 5"Did he not himself say to me, 'She is my sister '? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this."
Who God chooses to extend a mercy beyond a general mercy to should be totally up to Him - since there are no one who really can say that they are deserving of it. |
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:55 pm
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Quote: God decides who will be deaf, dumb, and blind. Ex.4:11 God is no respecter of persons. 2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11
God’s got a plan for people born with a disability. In their weakness, He can display His strength, His goodness, and His grace. This passage was life-changing for Nick Vujicic, a young man born without arms or legs. After a time of despair-filled depression, he heard this passage and it was a major “light bulb moment” for him. It changed everything. Nick has grasped that the reason he was born without limbs was so that God could be glorified in him in a special way. Today, he is a life-changer in the lives of millions of people worldwide. Check out his website “Life Without Limbs” at www.lifewithoutlimbs.org Here’s a YouTube video of Nick: www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ZuKF3dxCY
Actually, this is not an abstract concept for me; because I was crippled by polio as an infant, I’ve lived my life as if I were born with a disability. It’s not a matter of “their” weakness, but “our” weakness.
I respectfully suggest that the reason it’s easy to put an inordinate amount of stress on the idea of living a “normal” life free of physical limitations is the culture’s emphasis on the temporal, physical dimension of life. Consider 2 Cor 4:17-18
“For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.”
When we ONLY look at “the seen,” the temporal, we can forget that the lasting, unseen realities outweigh them. I can promise you that since God has shown me that the limits of my physical life are only “momentary, light affliction” that are producing in me “an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,” it allows me to focus on the things that really matter–things like letting God shine His light through me. He has shown me that He has been using my disability to scoop out my soul and create a bigger place for Him to fill; that He balances my physically diminished capacity with a larger spiritual capacity–and I’ll take that trade any day!
Now, I do realize that not everyone born blind, dear, lame etc., turns in faith to Christ. Some people live their whole lives consumed by bitterness and anger at God for allowing them to be born that way. That is so sad, that they miss the opportunity to experience God redeeming their painful experience and turning it into something good and beautiful (in the unseen, eternal sphere).
I have written an article on our website called “The Value of Suffering,” that gives more reasons that God allows people to be born with disabilities and experience other kinds of suffering. I hope you will find it helpful in answering your question more fully: www.probe.org/the-value-of-suffering/
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:02 pm
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Quote: God deceives. Ezek.14:9; 2 Thess.2:11 God condones lying. 1 Ki.22:22,23; 2 Chr.18:21,22 God cannot lie and hates lying. Prov.12:22; Heb.6:18
If you reject truth and don't even really want the truth, then you will get (i.e. God will give you) EXACTLY what you want! (The old "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it")
Some confusion (not all, by any means!) may be a judgment from God, in keeping with #1 above--cf. Rom 1.25 ("They exchanged the truth of God for a lie") and 1.28 ("Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind"). But it is ALWAYS in line with what we WANT.
God uses a 'permission' ethic to achieve this. In some cases He allowed false messages and false messengers to have access to the 'hearer' (e.g. Ahab, Jeremiah's audience); in some cases He will allow strong epistemic evidences to accompany said messages (2 Thess 2). He permits deceptive influences into someone's life because (1) they ASK for them; AND often (2) as judgment for prior rejection of truth and honesty-values.
Note: When the demons in Matt 8.30 asked for permission to enter the animals, Jesus simply said 'Go' (.31). This does NOT make Him the active sponsor of evil. When he told Judas to do his betrayal "quickly," this did not implicate Him in His own betrayal. God allows us to chose ignorance. He seems to stall it off for a while, but if we become increasingly dishonest in how we deal with information about Him and other truth, eventually He will ethically be driven to 'punish us'--to allow our character to BECOME like the character of our most recent choices (e.g. to reject obvious truth).
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:08 pm
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Quote: God dwells in thick darkness. 1 Ki.8:12; 2 Chr.6:1; Ps.18:11 God dwells in unapproachable light. 1 Ti.6:16
Does God Dwell in Light or Darkness?
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.
In the February 12, 2009 Butt/Barker Debate on the existence of the God of the Bible, atheist Dan Barker spent nearly two-thirds of his opening 15-minute speech alleging that the Bible’s portrayal of God is contradictory. Barker alleged several discrepancies (most all of which we have answered elsewhere on our Web site), including that God cannot logically dwell in light and darkness. Twelve minutes and five seconds into his first speech, Dan Barker asserted:
Does God live in light or does God live in darkness? First Timothy 6: “The King of kings, Lord of Lords dwelling in the light which no man can approach.” James 1:17: He’s “the Father of lights” and on and on we see God is light. There’s no darkness in him at all. However, in 1 Kings 8: “Then spake Solomon: “The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.” First Samuel 22: “He made darkness pavilions round about Him, dark waters and thick clouds of the sky.” Psalm 18:11: “He made darkness his secret place.” So, God lives in light. God lives in darkness.
Do these verses paint a contradictory picture of God? Not at all.
First, the Bible uses the terms “light” and “darkness” in several ways and in a variety of contexts. God’s dwelling place in the spiritual realm of the heaven of heavens is filled with “unapproachable light” (1 Timothy 6:16), because His unrestrained glory illuminates it (Revelation 21:23). God made light in the physical Universe during the six-day Creation and “called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night” (Genesis 1:5). He made the Sun, Moon, and stars on day four of Creation, thus making Him the “Father of lights” (James 1:17). Jesus was miraculously transfigured before three of His apostles and “His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light” (Matthew 17:2). The psalmist referred to light in the sense of divine instruction: “The entrance of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple” (119:130). Conversely, the psalmist referred to those who “do not know, nor...understand,” as those who “walk about in darkness” (82:5). While addressing the subjects of sin and righteousness, the apostle John used the terms light and darkness symbolically: “God is light (i.e., holy) and in Him is no darkness (i.e., sin)” (1 John 1:5). This same apostle referred to Jesus as “the Light” throughout his gospel account (1:4-9; 8:12; 9:5; 12:34-36,46), and Matthew recorded that Jesus spoke of His disciples as “the light of the world” (5:14-16), reflectors of His righteousness.
Notice that Barker never hinted at the different ways in which the word “light” and “darkness” are used in Scripture. He simply positioned a phrase like that found in James 1:17 regarding God being the Creator (“Father”) of lights against the poetic statement found in Psalm 18:11 (“He made darkness his secret place”) and expected his listeners to believe they are contradictory. But the fact is, God being the Father of the Sun, Moon, and stars made on day four, has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether God dwells in darkness or light. What God has created and where God dwells are two different things. One cannot fault Scripture when a critic compares apples and oranges. For there to be a legitimate contradiction, the same thing must be under consideration.
Second, the passage in 1 Kings 8:12 that Barker noted (“The Lord said that he would dwell in thick darkness”—KJV) is not discussing God’s dwelling place in the heaven of heavens. First Kings 8:12-13, along with 2 Chronicles 5:13-14, discuss God’s presence in the physical temple of God in Jerusalem. Just as “the cloud covered the tabernacle of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle” in the days of Moses (Exodus 40:34), so “the house of the Lord [the temple], was filled with a cloud” (2 Chronicles 5:13). Similarly, the highly poetic wording in Psalm 18 and 1 Samuel 22 (a quotation of Psalm 18.) pictures God, not on His majestic, glorious throne in heaven, but as One Who “came down” from heaven (Psalm 18:9), “flew upon the wings of the wind” (18:10), and delivered his servant David from his enemies while making “darkness His secret place” and “His canopy...dark waters” (18:11). As H.C. Leupold commented:
The picture is that of a violent storm—a figure so frequently used in the Scriptures to furnish the accompaniment of God’s approach, He Himself being as it were housed in the storm. From the time of Sinai onward these figures become standard (cf. Exod. 19:16-18; Judg. 5:4,5; Ps. 68:7;77:16-18; Is. 29:6; 30:27ff.; etc.). As the storm sweeps near, He is in it. The thick storm clouds are the material upon which He rides (1959, pp. 166-167).
Once again, when a person takes the time to carefully inspect Dan Barker’s allegation that the Bible paints a contradictory picture of God, the sincere truth seeker will discover the vacuousness of his charges. Time and again, both in his debate with Kyle Butt on the existence of the God of the Bible and in his writings, Barker has disregarded the fact that for a legitimate contradiction to exist, one must be referring to the same person, place, or thing, at the same time, in the same sense (for more information, see Lyons, 2003 and 2005).
REFERENCES
Butt, Kyle and Dan Barker (2009), The Butt/Barker Debate (Montgomery, AL: Apologetics Press).
Leupold, H.C. (1959), Exposition of the Psalms (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).
Lyons, Eric (2003), The Anvil Rings: Volume 1 (Montgomery, AL: Apologetics Press).
Lyons, Eric (2005), The Anvil Rings: Volume 2 (Montgomery, AL: Apologetics Press).
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Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 2:16 am
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