Romans 1 - Suppression of truth

[Garland-Green]

Am I right in my understanding of these verse that everybody knows there is a God, because God has made it evident to us that He exists in what He has made? People are without an excuse not to believe in Him? Does the verses indicate as I believe they do that He also gives people over to the lies they choose over Him so that they no longer are able to see the truth that they have refused to accept? Retain means continue to have something.
If this is true, that everyone can see there is a God why are we attempting engage in debate those that claim there is not enough proof? How should we engage those who make such claim in light of these verses?

I will underscore the verses in particular that I am thinking about;

Romans 1:18.32

God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.  

[Corvis Cross]

Amen, brother. You're spot on. As a young Christian, when I first came across these verses, I believed them. I still tried to share evidences like everyone else, but I can't say I believe it was in an improper way: I loved pointing out this text to people. Sadly, I think I threw it out and then kinda just left it there and went on to my evidences, instead of holding people to that as much as I could have (you can maybe tell with my Objections section on my website, which, if I ever get around to updating, I will indeed alter).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1AWO92Crc

Trailer for How To Answer the Fool - 2 minutes and 50 seconds

Listening to Sye and Jeff Durbin as well as trying to think through it all has helped me to better understand this, by God's grace. Evidences are great when people have legit questions, but when people are raising objections? It's easy to challenge their very basis for even making them. It demonstrates that these verses are indeed true: they know God exists, they know there is absolute truth and they live as if there is (though they'll say they don't; I used to do this exact same thing before I was a Christian), yet they actively suppress it.

They may say one thing, but some well-aimed questions will demonstrate that they are not consistent with what they claim.

Ultimately, making these points can't in and of itself convert them. They already have all of the evidence they need and they're still not believing, right? This is simply a way to interact with them and honor God at the same time. We can't enter the discussion by denying what these texts say: people know, so I can't treat them like they don't know. You say you don't know? Okay, where do you get truth without God? Answer the fool as his folly deserves.
_

Proverbs 26:4-5

4Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

5Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.  

[D-BoyTheFighter]

We see it going on in America and other countries. (Communist and other totalitarian regimes shove the suppression of the truth into overdrive!)  

[cristobela]

Garland-Green

If this is true, that everyone can see there is a God why are we attempting engage in debate those that claim there is not enough proof? How should we engage those who make such claim in light of these verses?

I think there are two main reasons why we engage them:

1. They provide an opportunity for God to be discussed in the first place and help those listening come to faith / learn more:


• Daniel 12:10 (NIV)
  
  10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
  
  
• Proverbs 19:25 (NIV)
  
  25 Flog a mocker, and the simple will learn prudence;
      rebuke the discerning, and they will gain knowledge.



2. In case the Word of God penetrates their pride enough to see the truth.


• 2 Timothy 2:25-26 (NIV)
  
  25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

We don't really know the condition on the inside of a person until they speak or continue the conversation. Are they misguided? never heard the truth or proper explanation? or just stubborn in rebellion due to their pride of not wanting to submit to their Creator? In either case, such souls are useful: aside from providing a platform to speak about God, they provide an opportunity to demonstrate Christ's non-fleshly nature/non-retaliating/non-bitterness in speech, contrasted to theirs which helps convict them (and whoever is listening) that they're wrong.

It's difficult to discern at times whether to engage them or not. When the environment is non-believing, though, my expectations are really low. I don't go in expecting for people to agree, but to be a walking advertisement of the truth. Go in because the Spirit moved you to correct something or elaborate on something. If they are a fool, then they won't agree with the Word. If they're wise, and have an ear to hear, they will agree, but they may not even be a part of the discussion, and are just lurking/eavesdropping.

As far as Gaia goes, I don't usually post in the main forums because I see a lot of Proverbs 18:2.

• Proverbs 18:2 (NIV)
  
  2 Fools find no pleasure in understanding
      but delight in airing their own opinions.
  
  
• Proverbs 23:9 (NIV)
  
  9 Do not speak to fools,
      for they will scorn your prudent words.
  

My main intention anyway is not to speak to the fool, but to speak to those listening who may have ears to hear, and if God grants them repentance that's icing on the cake.  

[Garland-Green]

Micah Seven Eighteen

Amen, brother. You're spot on. As a young Christian, when I first came across these verses, I believed them. I still tried to share evidences like everyone else, but I can't say I believe it was in an improper way: I loved pointing out this text to people. Sadly, I think I threw it out and then kinda just left it there and went on to my evidences, instead of holding people to that as much as I could have (you can maybe tell with my Objections section on my website, which, if I ever get around to updating, I will indeed alter).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1AWO92Crc

Trailer for How To Answer the Fool - 2 minutes and 50 seconds

Listening to Sye and Jeff Durbin as well as trying to think through it all has helped me to better understand this, by God's grace. Evidences are great when people have legit questions, but when people are raising objections? It's easy to challenge their very basis for even making them. It demonstrates that these verses are indeed true: they know God exists, they know there is absolute truth and they live as if there is (though they'll say they don't; I used to do this exact same thing before I was a Christian), yet they actively suppress it.

They may say one thing, but some well-aimed questions will demonstrate that they are not consistent with what they claim.

Ultimately, making these points can't in and of itself convert them. They already have all of the evidence they need and they're still not believing, right? This is simply a way to interact with them and honor God at the same time. We can't enter the discussion by denying what these texts say: people know, so I can't treat them like they don't know. You say you don't know? Okay, where do you get truth without God? Answer the fool as his folly deserves.
_

Proverbs 26:4-5

4Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

5Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.

It makes me wonder if when Peter says;

1 Peter 3:15

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

That is is not really a debate he is talking about. Could this be just as much for our own sake that we are to do this? To bring all thoughts captive under Christ?

Perhaps my problem is that (I am very frustrated debating some people that I can tell don't want to answer what they obviously know is true but immediately make new objections instead) I want to see quick results, and that I am relying too much on offering evidence instead of preaching the word.  

[Garland-Green]

D-BoyTheFighter

We see it going on in America and other countries. (Communist and other totalitarian regimes shove the suppression of the truth into overdrive!)

Here in Norway as well. There is less room to talk about Jesus and the Bible. It could be that the full number is close to have come in in my country.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Less room to express your belief without suffering some sort of injustice. Be it ridicule or exclusion. I have heard several times that believing in the things of the Bible is outdated. "We are in 2015 now."  

[Garland-Green]

SARL0

i have been thinking along these very same lines! srsly !

If Gods word is true, which i believe it is, then the so called atheists are lying to us. which, why wouldn't they? they are of their father the devil who is a liar and are just doing what's natural for them to do. the thing that is inside of them, untruth, is coming out.

just like when we who are saved, the truth of Jesus just comes out of us - living waters, the truth, Gods word, ect...

but yes! i believe what Gods word teaches, that they know there's a God, that they're without excuse. They're just lying to us. There's plenty of evidence in creation and then the power of Gods word and the Gospel on top of that, yet they refuse and reject Christ. Why? because their deeds are evil and they love darkness.

imo, all the debating in the world by the best and most knowledgeable debate tactics. being a great orator and knowing how to word things perfectly won't bring an atheist to salvation. The power that will bring them to salvation is in Gods word. Gods word is where faith is obtained, Gods word is the thing that is shaper than a two edged sword, Gods word is spirit, Gods word is what has the power to cleanse and change.

not putting together a beautiful debate speech making sure you're not using circular reasoning, checking all the fallacies, ect... it's Gods word that will open the eyes of the lost and give faith to the faithless.

imo, debating can be a waste of time, but it's easy to get drawn in to it. and can be somewhat entertaining to pass time. from what i'm seeing in the religion forum, is a lot of the nonbelieves debate about how to debate. many discussions become a game of semantics and the meaning of words and i see many ppl twisting what others say and being very dishonest and unfair in their discussion to the point it's just talking in to the air. and even worse, there are those who are bitter and filled w/ hate, rude and just filthy and full of cussing - i always put those ppl on ignore. imo, those ppl are either trolling or they have mental and emotional issues that are too deep to be helped via an online discussion forum.

i dont think Gods word is in favor of debating really. however, i think it's good to reason from the scriptures.
it's funny to me tho.... many of the Christian haters suggest to Christians, and i've never seen them suggest to ppl of any other belief system, that they leave the forum and join a guild in order to talk religion. IN the religion and morality forum of all places. rolleyes

Atheists & other non believers claim there's just not enough proof and evidence for them to believe in God. they're lying. The word of God teaches that the invisible things of him are CLEARLY SEEN and not just clearly seen, but understood! i conclude that the athests are lying to us. i enjoy dialogue and back n forth chat and discussion, but when they get nasty, spreading their hatred , bitterness and vile talk - there's just nothing more for me to say to them or hear from them.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

As far as how should we engage them? with the word of God, scripture. they won't like it, but so what. and what i feel needs to be done often is simply not engaging w/ them in debate at all. many of them have been exposed to the truth and the gospel so much that they can quote it themselves - i personally feel it's my obligation to walk away from those types, the dust has been shaken off as a testimony against them. why cast that which is holy before the swine? they are merely waiting to sink their hate in to a loving Christian. Gods word doesn't teach us that we're obligated to keep engaging them in discussion, i feel it teaches us to turn away from them.

I agree. You can deny the most obvious truths in the world if you have reasons not to accept it. There is not really any undeniable proof. When I was a Buddhist I denied the reality of the material world. That means that I questioned even given truths such as gravity. Even if God appeared to someone and talked to them in person there would be ways to get around accepting it as true. People will always find a way to insulate themselves against it if it is something they feel threatened by or if they feel entitled to continue on the path they are walking.

It could be also that each time they have heard the Gospel and refused to listen to the Holy Spirit pushing them that they make their hearts less and less susceptible to it. Turning away from the truth is a very scary thing.

I often end debates when they have stopped answering my questions, refuse to accept or listen to any of the answers I give them. An example would be a conversation I had earlier with someone who demanded proof, but only scientific proof. Only proof that you can measure. I asked if there was any other way of knowing truth than through the scientific method. I got no answer. Just more questions. He did not want to say yes. Though he knew it to be true. No point in continuing. He just wants to reaffirm what he is already believing, or win an argument.

I have stopped debating in the extended discussion forums because of the amount of hostility there. It seems to me that the object of a lot of debaters is to provoke you to make you look bad and by extension what you believe, as you have pointed out. If people want me to leave I will leave, unless it is my own thread. Then I can't be accused of imposing myself on anyone. I have had success pointing out that I will talk to people if they moderate their language. "I address you respectfully, why can't you do the same for me?"  

[Garland-Green]

cristobela

Garland-Green

If this is true, that everyone can see there is a God why are we attempting engage in debate those that claim there is not enough proof? How should we engage those who make such claim in light of these verses?

I think there are two main reasons why we engage them:

1. They provide an opportunity for God to be discussed in the first place and help those listening come to faith / learn more:


• Daniel 12:10 (NIV)
  
  10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
  
  
• Proverbs 19:25 (NIV)
  
  25 Flog a mocker, and the simple will learn prudence;
      rebuke the discerning, and they will gain knowledge.



2. In case the Word of God penetrates their pride enough to see the truth.


• 2 Timothy 2:25-26 (NIV)
  
  25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

We don't really know the condition on the inside of a person until they speak or continue the conversation. Are they misguided? never heard the truth or proper explanation? or just stubborn in rebellion due to their pride of not wanting to submit to their Creator? In either case, such souls are useful: aside from providing a platform to speak about God, they provide an opportunity to demonstrate Christ's non-fleshly nature/non-retaliating/non-bitterness in speech, contrasted to theirs which helps convict them (and whoever is listening) that they're wrong.

It's difficult to discern at times whether to engage them or not. When the environment is non-believing, though, my expectations are really low. I don't go in expecting for people to agree, but to be a walking advertisement of the truth. Go in because the Spirit moved you to correct something or elaborate on something. If they are a fool, then they won't agree with the Word. If they're wise, and have an ear to hear, they will agree, but they may not even be a part of the discussion, and are just lurking/eavesdropping.

As far as Gaia goes, I don't usually post in the main forums because I see a lot of Proverbs 18:2.

• Proverbs 18:2 (NIV)
  
  2 Fools find no pleasure in understanding
      but delight in airing their own opinions.
  
  
• Proverbs 23:9 (NIV)
  
  9 Do not speak to fools,
      for they will scorn your prudent words.
  

My main intention anyway is not to speak to the fool, but to speak to those listening who may have ears to hear, and if God grants them repentance that's icing on the cake.

I have often found talking to people that they are in rebellion. Some are more eloquent and able to speak politely, but they are still in rebellion. The wast majority I have talked to seem to have been actively searching out objections instead of answers to doubts. It could be just that anything Christian is like a flame to a moth to those people, I don't know. They could be looking to be reaffirmed in their rebellion by attempting to make me respond in a negative way which is way I always attempt to be polite and respectful no matter what.

My chief reason for posting in the CB is the same as yours - being a walking advertisement for the truth. I am hoping that they will see by my persistence that Jesus is the way. I am hoping that even if they don't visit the thread and take time to read it that it will pull on their heart. Even negative feedback in a sense is good feedback. If someone is upset just by seeing the word Bible (telling you to stop pushing religion on them), then I think their conscience is pretty seared and they know it. Perhaps it is good for them to see the word as often as possible. xp  

[Corvis Cross]

Garland-Green

Micah Seven Eighteen

Amen, brother. You're spot on. As a young Christian, when I first came across these verses, I believed them. I still tried to share evidences like everyone else, but I can't say I believe it was in an improper way: I loved pointing out this text to people. Sadly, I think I threw it out and then kinda just left it there and went on to my evidences, instead of holding people to that as much as I could have (you can maybe tell with my Objections section on my website, which, if I ever get around to updating, I will indeed alter).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1AWO92Crc

Trailer for How To Answer the Fool - 2 minutes and 50 seconds

Listening to Sye and Jeff Durbin as well as trying to think through it all has helped me to better understand this, by God's grace. Evidences are great when people have legit questions, but when people are raising objections? It's easy to challenge their very basis for even making them. It demonstrates that these verses are indeed true: they know God exists, they know there is absolute truth and they live as if there is (though they'll say they don't; I used to do this exact same thing before I was a Christian), yet they actively suppress it.

They may say one thing, but some well-aimed questions will demonstrate that they are not consistent with what they claim.

Ultimately, making these points can't in and of itself convert them. They already have all of the evidence they need and they're still not believing, right? This is simply a way to interact with them and honor God at the same time. We can't enter the discussion by denying what these texts say: people know, so I can't treat them like they don't know. You say you don't know? Okay, where do you get truth without God? Answer the fool as his folly deserves.
_

Proverbs 26:4-5

4Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

5Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.

It makes me wonder if when Peter says;

1 Peter 3:15

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

That is is not really a debate he is talking about. Could this be just as much for our own sake that we are to do this? To bring all thoughts captive under Christ?

Perhaps my problem is that (I am very frustrated debating some people that I can tell don't want to answer what they obviously know is true but immediately make new objections instead) I want to see quick results, and that I am relying too much on offering evidence instead of preaching the word.

It would seem to me he is referring to debate, considering the language.
_

http://biblehub.com/greek/627.htm
_

Perhaps many, seeing the word "debate", may assume something negative, whether it's because they reject reasoning as "ungodly" or they assume heated, angry arguments are being talked about. There are many instances of the Apostles and even Jesus debating, so debating is not at all to be pushed out as something wrong or sinful. Heck, even denying reason because you think it to be ungodly is using reasoning, so the position is self-refuting. Debating does not at all necessitate heated or mean-spirited argumentation. The prevalent idea of following feelings, often confusing feelings with the Spirit, should be criticized more so than debate, considering the strong negative language the Bible puts on following the heart, etc.

That said, I think God uses everything in so many ways that we really couldn't know the intricate details of all of it. I believe it well could be for our own sake, even to take captive our thoughts. As an example, my interactions with others have helped me to better understand what they mean so I can represent them properly when objecting to their worldview. I believe these interactions are a means God uses to do that.

I noticed something cristobela was saying. Though I just posted a verse which explains that we are to answer the fool, there are times not to talk, which is very good to point out. It's true. It reminds me of what Jesus says, not casting your pearls before swine. These are things that are as equally true and inspired and exist in the same Bible as giving a reason. That should be taken into consideration as well, and it's all situational. It's something to pray about, even a quick prayer while you're in the situation. I trust God to open doors and close them, so to speak, and even to take away opportunity for me to say this or that or grant it to me. Maybe you want to say this thing, but perhaps God doesn't (maybe not even period, but maybe just not yet), and does not allow you opportunity.

In the case of the Gospel thread you often interact in? I set that up to share the Gospel. It's on there in the first post. The majority after that is interacting with people objecting, quoting Scripture, etc. to bring more people to see the Gospel. When I engage people on here, I do it knowing God is sovereign and trust Him to work in whatever way He wishes. Some may be hardened, some may be granted faith and repentance. If it were one on one, there may be many I'd never even reply to (actually, there are some I don't even in the thread, usually when it's just an insult, etc.) but considering this is a thread, where anyone can come and see any of it at any time? These interactions are potentially for brothers and sisters, to help them think through objections as well and to bolster our faith. They are potentially for unbelievers who just come and read and never reply. They are even for me, I believe, as they are a means God uses to improve me as well, even bolstering my faith. I remember at least one time in particular having doubts, and understanding that we can't make sense of anything apart from God was what God used to dispel them.

I can totally understand the frustration. Think about what your goal ultimately is with your argumentation: making converts or God's glory? My evangelism is chiefly because I want God to be glorified, which would be the chief end of man (Westminster Catechism shoutout, ha). God has commanded me to evangelize and to give a defense. Of course I want men to be converted, but I know I can't make that happen (though I still inconsistently struggle at times with the same frustrations you have; I know at those times I'm trying to rely too much on my own arm, on my argumentation, just like you said your issue is with evidences). All I can do is be faithful and speak what is true in love and trust God with the rest. God will draw His people to Himself; He will not fail. My hope to convert men shouldn't be in my ability to argue well, but it should be in He who grants faith and repentance.