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 Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:20 am
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I have seen a great deal of people using scripture one verse at a time to prove what they have to say. The problem is, by doing this, you can make the scripture say anything. The scriptures are not meant to be read verse by verse. They are not meant to be pulled apart into tiny little sections. They were written to be read as a whole. Not even looking at the whole chapter can give a proper idea of context in much of the Bible.
I cannot in good conscience sit here and see the Holy Scriptures being disregarded so carelessly. If one wants to know what Saint Paul said on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, one should read the entire book of Galatians, not just chapter 5. He had a way of referring back to previous writings as well so it is wise to cross reference.
One should never just grab one verse. One verse means nothing. "Jesus wept" (John 11:35) says nothing more than He cried. Why? In what manner? Where? With whom? Why is this important? There are no frivolous parts of the Bible. Everything has meaning. Reading in it's entirety, you find out that Jesus wept because He was moved in spirit, He mourned Lazarus, even though He knew that He would raise him from the dead. You learn that Lazarus was not just an acquaintance, nor was he apostle. He was a friend. A genuine friend of Christ. You learn that Jesus mourns with Mary. When Martha found Him, he did not cry, but it was Mary, the one who had sat at His feet listening so intently, the one who would pour perfume over His feet, who brought Him to tears. Going further, you discover that this would not be the only time that He is anointed with perfume in this way (The book of Luke). You learn that while He had wept, the crowd saw how much He had loved Lazarus. You learn of the faith of the sisters. You learn the Jesus was blamed by some for the man's death though, because He had not come in time. Looking back you see that He had delayed on purpose. This was His intent all along. He made public statement, not because He needed to speak out loud but just so the people would hear Him. Lazarus was risen from the dead and the grave clothes were removed. News spread quickly. When the pharisees found out they called a meeting of the Sanhedrin where the plot to kill Jesus would begin to form. Not for fear of heresy, but for fear of the Romans takings the temple and the nation if Jesus gained too many followers. You learn that Caiaphas had prophesied earlier in the year that Jesus would die for all of the Jewish people and all scattered children of God. You learn that He didn't share this information with anyone. Orders were given that anyone who knew where Jesus was was to report him to the Sanhedrin. Passover is coming.
You learn that the raising of Lazarus was the straw that broke the camel's back and Jesus knew what would happen. Jesus had a social life. He had friends, not just followers. It would seem that he had a soft spot for Mary. She adored Him. Taking one verse "Jesus wept" and expanding it, bring much more than just "Well, He cried" And still, I have not expanded it all the way. There is so much more in so many other direction to look at than just reading the one verse and repeating it.
When you try to reach people and just quote a verse here and a verse there, they will not understand. It will make them shut down. You cannot just say "Convert or burn in Hell because Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, No many cometh unto the Father but by me"" They won't get it. You need to teach, not Bible thump, not cherry pick, not just spit out verse. People are rational creatures. We need to know what, when, who, where, why, and how. We need to know the context. We need to know why this applies to us, today, here, 2000 years later and thousands of mile away.
Scripture is sacred. It isn't meant to be picked apart here and there. We should not, in good conscience, allow it to continue. It is disrespectful and shows a lack of understanding.
http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/the-problem-with-proof-texting/&h=BAQHammh5
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:01 am
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kattneko I have seen a great deal of people using scripture one verse at a time to prove what they have to say. The problem is, by doing this, you can make the scripture say anything. The scriptures are not meant to be read verse by verse. They are not meant to be pulled apart into tiny little sections. They were written to be read as a whole. Not even looking at the whole chapter can give a proper idea of context in much of the Bible. I cannot in good conscience sit here and see the Holy Scriptures being disregarded so carelessly. If one wants to know what Saint Paul said on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, one should read the entire book of Galatians, not just chapter 5. He had a way of referring back to previous writings as well so it is wise to cross reference. One should never just grab one verse. One verse means nothing. "Jesus wept" (John 11:35) says nothing more than He cried. Why? In what manner? Where? With whom? Why is this important? There are no frivolous parts of the Bible. Everything has meaning. Reading in it's entirety, you find out that Jesus wept because He was moved in spirit, He mourned Lazarus, even though He knew that He would raise him from the dead. You learn that Lazarus was not just an acquaintance, nor was he apostle. He was a friend. A genuine friend of Christ. You learn that Jesus mourns with Mary. When Martha found Him, he did not cry, but it was Mary, the one who had sat at His feet listening so intently, the one who would pour perfume over His feet, who brought Him to tears. Going further, you discover that this would not be the only time that He is anointed with perfume in this way (The book of Luke). You learn that while He had wept, the crowd saw how much He had loved Lazarus. You learn of the faith of the sisters. You learn the Jesus was blamed by some for the man's death though, because He had not come in time. Looking back you see that He had delayed on purpose. This was His intent all along. He made public statement, not because He needed to speak out loud but just so the people would hear Him. Lazarus was risen from the dead and the grave clothes were removed. News spread quickly. When the pharisees found out they called a meeting of the Sanhedrin where the plot to kill Jesus would begin to form. Not for fear of heresy, but for fear of the Romans takings the temple and the nation if Jesus gained too many followers. You learn that Caiaphas had prophesied earlier in the year that Jesus would die for all of the Jewish people and all scattered children of God. You learn that He didn't share this information with anyone. Orders were given that anyone who knew where Jesus was was to report him to the Sanhedrin. Passover is coming. You learn that the raising of Lazarus was the straw that broke the camel's back and Jesus knew what would happen. Jesus had a social life. He had friends, not just followers. It would seem that he had a soft spot for Mary. She adored Him. Taking one verse "Jesus wept" and expanding it, bring much more than just "Well, He cried" And still, I have not expanded it all the way. There is so much more in so many other direction to look at than just reading the one verse and repeating it. When you try to reach people and just quote a verse here and a verse there, they will not understand. It will make them shut down. You cannot just say "Convert or burn in Hell because Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, No many cometh unto the Father but by me"" They won't get it. You need to teach, not Bible thump, not cherry pick, not just spit out verse. People are rational creatures. We need to know what, when, who, where, why, and how. We need to know the context. We need to know why this applies to us, today, here, 2000 years later and thousands of mile away. Scripture is sacred. It isn't meant to be picked apart here and there. We should not, in good conscience, allow it to continue. It is disrespectful and shows a lack of understanding. ]http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/the-problem-with-proof-texting/&h=BAQHammh5
I agree.
However, concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the epistle to the Galatians doesn't mention “gifts” (it mentions “fruit”, which are character qualities that manifest through you because of the Spirit). The epistle to the Romans and the Corinthians are the ones who mention the gifts.
Romans 12:6-8 (NIV)
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 12:6 Or the
b. Romans 12:8 Or to provide for others
1 Corinthians 12:1-11 (NIV)
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 12:10 Or languages; also in verse 28
b. 1 Corinthians 12:10 Or languages; also in verse 28
1 Corinthians 7:1-7 (NIV)
7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
Note: By quoting 1 Corinthians 7, I'm alluding to the gift of celibacy.
Wherever the concept repeats, you would quote from that book/verse to get a clearer, more complete understanding of what the concept encompasses.
Galatians, on the other hand:
Galatians 5:19-25 (NIV)
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Since the fruit of the Spirit includes “love”: you go to other places, that define love for you:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
John 15:13 (NIV)
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
1 John 5:2 (NIV)
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
So on and so forth.
Even if it's just one verse. It's not proof-texting; it's demonstrating how the same concept exists across the books of the bible, and how one word can have many applications (whether approving of many things or condemning many things).
If you're reacting this way because of my lengthy, explanatory reply in the “Roman Catholicism” thread—which was written to teach—then you did not realize that that's exactly what I did: teach, and quote from wherever the common theme or identical concept was expressed, the concept spanning across different books, demonstrated in the lives of different people (e.g. examples of sinful believers justifying the act of walking contrary to a command and saying it was okay to do as long as they did it to honor God [but in YHWH's eyes it was not approved]; how mankind can pursue a way that appears right to self, but is not right to YHWH, in YHWH's eyes, in accord with His Commands).
If you're trying to imply that the Holy Spirit's enabling of an "artful, skillful hand”—like He enabled Bezalel and Oholiab in Exodus 31:1-11—somehow excuses them from obeying the command to NOT make images of God, then you're wrong and are cherry-picking. The pomegranates, the palm trees, and cherubim, which they made for the tabernacle, were not made in representation of the Creator. They did not use their artistic gifts in ways that broke His command (to not make images of Him). No one is bowing before these images either.
Fast forward to Solomon's day, the bronze calves under the bronze sea [the giant bronze basin] was not an image of YHWH. But the golden calf, made in representation of YHWH Himself, was sinful (both in Moses' day and in Jeroboam's day; Jeroboam came to reign right after Solomon's death—and it would still be sinful to do today, whether portraying Him as a cow or a human); we can't make images of God. On the other hand, the 12 bronze calves weren't in representation of YHWH. So, they weren't disobedient pieces of art. But the golden calves were made with the intention to illustrate the Creator; and that was disobedient/sinful/contrary to His command.
You have to ask yourself: if obeying the commands of God is love—love towards God and love towards my fellow man—then how does my making of, or approving of, illustrations of God fail to express love (and it does fail to express love, that is why it is commanded against)? Because it misleads someone into thinking that YHWH is just another lifeless, dumb, statue that can do no good, nor do any bad—like the idols of the nations. It misleads people into thinking that ALL religions are the same, even the atheistic ones like Buddhism, who bow before images. The way YHWH commanded worship is not shared by the idolatrous beliefs of the pagans. Only YHWH has a 7-branched lampstand. Only YHWH has passover. Only YHWH has the ark of the covenant. Only YHWH has the weekly sabbath—resting from our labors and servile work on the seventh day (though healing / saving life is acceptable), like YHWH did. Only YHWH is the God who comes to die for you to save you from His wrath. The Buddhists don't have any of that. The Hindus don't have any of that. So to adopt their practices (bowing before images, for whatever reason, kissing statues, etc), makes it seem like we all worship the same way (the same exact justifications you gave for why making images of God is not idolatrous was identical to what the Hindus claim as the reason for why they make images in the first place; that should have clarified the issue). To adopt the appearance of a pagan religion, and incorporate unlawful practices / practices that break His commands, is to mislead people from the truth. The worldly are making an assessment first, not by what the bible says, but what the practices/culture of His people looks like (unfortunately, to their own demise). Obeying YHWH's commands would prevent us from looking like them (in behavior, in religious practices, in attitudes, etc)—like I quoted in the explanation.
Leviticus 18:3 (NIV)
3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices.
Leviticus 20:26 (NIV)
26 You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
Jesus did not break the commands of God in order to teach the truth. He spoke to the illiterate. He didn't make images of God to help the illiterate. He spoke. We today speak, and even go to the lengths of teaching them to read / understand words, so they can rely on the bible. Jesus also did not kiss statues to venerate His Heavenly Father or earthly mother, or venerate the prophet Moses, or venerate the father of the faith Abraham. To do so would communicate to a lost person that the idol worship of their own culture is acceptable to continue to do, and if they convert, acceptable to do to the Living God. It is not. It's a useless practice. Kissing images of gods, like I quoted from scripture (Hosea 13:2; 1 Kings 19:18), was the pagan thing. We're not to be like the nations.
If what we do resembles the culture of a pagan/idolatrous one that existed before us, guess who the ignorant/worldly/unregenerate person gives credit to and thinks is where the truth can be found? In the pagan religions—the oldest example of the practice. This is why YHWH is so adamant about not adopting their ways. You will mislead people and give glory to their demons and idols/false beliefs, and detrimental lifestyles.
You brought up that such a stance against making images of God resembles Muslim thought. The Muslims are getting it from the commands of Moses—whom Jesus told us to obey.
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Jesus commanded us to obey what's preached from Moses' seat. I've no interest in deliberately going against what Jesus told us—His disciples—to do. For the record, what is preached from Moses' seat:
Exodus 18:13-16 (NIV)
13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”
15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”
God's commands. God's decrees and instructions.
Unfortunately, yes, the Muslims are being more obedient in this area (not making images of God) than the majority of Christians (but Muslims deviate as well: they take it to another extreme because they exalt Muhammad as a true prophet of God, and won't even allow images of a prophet to be made, even if no one is praying to it, or bowing down to it. The prohibitions against making images of God do not come from Muhammad though. They come from Moses).
For the record, I do not agree that Muhammad is a prophet; Muhammad denies Jesus' divinity and denies the crucifixion even happened. I do not submit to Muhammad. I submit to Jesus, the Son of God (not just Son of Mary, but Son of God), who is the Word of God and is God. I submit to what He and His Father commanded to do. That the Muslims have a reputation of being more obedient to the idolatry prohibitions than most Christians, doesn't change that “do not make images of Me” is a command from our Heavenly Father, the Most High God. And artistic skill does not excuse us from obedience to that command (to not make images of the Creator). Bezalel and Oholiab did not make images of God.
edit:
The following is incorrect:
kattneko When Martha found Him, he did not cry, but it was Mary, the one who had sat at His feet listening so intently, the one who would pour perfume over His feet, who brought Him to tears.
Jesus didn't cry because of Mary. He was deeply moved upon seeing that Lazarus was buried and dead.
John 11:35-39 (NIV)
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”
37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”
38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
And if one's point was to illustrate that Jesus did cry, quoting John 11:35 would suffice. |
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:44 am
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cristobela kattneko I have seen a great deal of people using scripture one verse at a time to prove what they have to say. The problem is, by doing this, you can make the scripture say anything. The scriptures are not meant to be read verse by verse. They are not meant to be pulled apart into tiny little sections. They were written to be read as a whole. Not even looking at the whole chapter can give a proper idea of context in much of the Bible. I cannot in good conscience sit here and see the Holy Scriptures being disregarded so carelessly. If one wants to know what Saint Paul said on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, one should read the entire book of Galatians, not just chapter 5. He had a way of referring back to previous writings as well so it is wise to cross reference. One should never just grab one verse. One verse means nothing. "Jesus wept" (John 11:35) says nothing more than He cried. Why? In what manner? Where? With whom? Why is this important? There are no frivolous parts of the Bible. Everything has meaning. Reading in it's entirety, you find out that Jesus wept because He was moved in spirit, He mourned Lazarus, even though He knew that He would raise him from the dead. You learn that Lazarus was not just an acquaintance, nor was he apostle. He was a friend. A genuine friend of Christ. You learn that Jesus mourns with Mary. When Martha found Him, he did not cry, but it was Mary, the one who had sat at His feet listening so intently, the one who would pour perfume over His feet, who brought Him to tears. Going further, you discover that this would not be the only time that He is anointed with perfume in this way (The book of Luke). You learn that while He had wept, the crowd saw how much He had loved Lazarus. You learn of the faith of the sisters. You learn the Jesus was blamed by some for the man's death though, because He had not come in time. Looking back you see that He had delayed on purpose. This was His intent all along. He made public statement, not because He needed to speak out loud but just so the people would hear Him. Lazarus was risen from the dead and the grave clothes were removed. News spread quickly. When the pharisees found out they called a meeting of the Sanhedrin where the plot to kill Jesus would begin to form. Not for fear of heresy, but for fear of the Romans takings the temple and the nation if Jesus gained too many followers. You learn that Caiaphas had prophesied earlier in the year that Jesus would die for all of the Jewish people and all scattered children of God. You learn that He didn't share this information with anyone. Orders were given that anyone who knew where Jesus was was to report him to the Sanhedrin. Passover is coming. You learn that the raising of Lazarus was the straw that broke the camel's back and Jesus knew what would happen. Jesus had a social life. He had friends, not just followers. It would seem that he had a soft spot for Mary. She adored Him. Taking one verse "Jesus wept" and expanding it, bring much more than just "Well, He cried" And still, I have not expanded it all the way. There is so much more in so many other direction to look at than just reading the one verse and repeating it. When you try to reach people and just quote a verse here and a verse there, they will not understand. It will make them shut down. You cannot just say "Convert or burn in Hell because Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, No many cometh unto the Father but by me"" They won't get it. You need to teach, not Bible thump, not cherry pick, not just spit out verse. People are rational creatures. We need to know what, when, who, where, why, and how. We need to know the context. We need to know why this applies to us, today, here, 2000 years later and thousands of mile away. Scripture is sacred. It isn't meant to be picked apart here and there. We should not, in good conscience, allow it to continue. It is disrespectful and shows a lack of understanding. ]http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/the-problem-with-proof-texting/&h=BAQHammh5
I agree.
However, concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the epistle to the Galatians doesn't mention “gifts” (it mentions “fruit”, which are character qualities that manifest through you because of the Spirit). The epistle to the Romans and the Corinthians are the ones who mention the gifts.
Romans 12:6-8 (NIV)
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 12:6 Or the
b. Romans 12:8 Or to provide for others
1 Corinthians 12:1-11 (NIV)
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 12:10 Or languages; also in verse 28
b. 1 Corinthians 12:10 Or languages; also in verse 28
1 Corinthians 7:1-7 (NIV)
7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
Note: By quoting 1 Corinthians 7, I'm alluding to the gift of celibacy.
Wherever the concept repeats, you would quote from that book/verse to get a clearer, more complete understanding of what the concept encompasses.
Galatians, on the other hand:
Galatians 5:19-25 (NIV)
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Since the fruit of the Spirit includes “love”: you go to other places, that define love for you:
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
John 15:13 (NIV)
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
1 John 5:2 (NIV)
2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
So on and so forth.
Even if it's just one verse. It's not proof-texting; it's demonstrating how the same concept exists across the books of the bible, and how one word can have many applications (whether approving of many things or condemning many things).
If you're reacting this way because of my lengthy, explanatory reply in the “Roman Catholicism” thread—which was written to teach—then you did not realize that that's exactly what I did: teach, and quote from wherever the common theme or identical concept was expressed, the concept spanning across different books, demonstrated in the lives of different people (e.g. examples of sinful believers justifying the act of walking contrary to a command and saying it was okay to do as long as they did it to honor God [but in YHWH's eyes it was not approved]; how mankind can pursue a way that appears right to self, but is not right to YHWH, in YHWH's eyes, in accord with His Commands).
If you're trying to imply that the Holy Spirit's enabling of an "artful, skillful hand”—like He enabled Bezalel and Oholiab in Exodus 31:1-11—somehow excuses them from obeying the command to NOT make images of God, then you're wrong and are cherry-picking. The pomegranates, the palm trees, and cherubim, which they made for the tabernacle, were not made in representation of the Creator. They did not use their artistic gifts in ways that broke His command (to not make images of Him). No one is bowing before these images either.
Fast forward to Solomon's day, the bronze calves under the bronze sea [the giant bronze basin] was not an image of YHWH. But the golden calf, made in representation of YHWH Himself, was sinful (both in Moses' day and in Jeroboam's day; Jeroboam came to reign right after Solomon's death—and it would still be sinful to do today, whether portraying Him as a cow or a human); we can't make images of God. On the other hand, the 12 bronze calves weren't in representation of YHWH. So, they weren't disobedient pieces of art. But the golden calves were made with the intention to illustrate the Creator; and that was disobedient/sinful/contrary to His command.
You have to ask yourself: if obeying the commands of God is love—love towards God and love towards my fellow man—then how does my making of, or approving of, illustrations of God fail to express love (and it does fail to express love, that is why it is commanded against)? Because it misleads someone into thinking that YHWH is just another lifeless, dumb, statue that can do no good, nor do any bad—like the idols of the nations. It misleads people into thinking that ALL religions are the same, even the atheistic ones like Buddhism, who bow before images. The way YHWH commanded worship is not shared by the idolatrous beliefs of the pagans. Only YHWH has a 7-branched lampstand. Only YHWH has passover. Only YHWH has the ark of the covenant. Only YHWH has the weekly sabbath—resting from our labors and servile work on the seventh day (though healing / saving life is acceptable), like YHWH did. Only YHWH is the God who comes to die for you to save you from His wrath. The Buddhists don't have any of that. The Hindus don't have any of that. So to adopt their practices (bowing before images, for whatever reason, kissing statues, etc), makes it seem like we all worship the same way (the same exact justifications you gave for why making images of God is not idolatrous was identical to what the Hindus claim as the reason for why they make images in the first place; that should have clarified the issue). To adopt the appearance of a pagan religion, and incorporate unlawful practices / practices that break His commands, is to mislead people from the truth. The worldly are making an assessment first, not by what the bible says, but what the practices/culture of His people looks like (unfortunately, to their own demise). Obeying YHWH's commands would prevent us from looking like them (in behavior, in religious practices, in attitudes, etc)—like I quoted in the explanation.
Leviticus 18:3 (NIV)
3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices.
Leviticus 20:26 (NIV)
26 You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.
Jesus did not break the commands of God in order to teach the truth. He spoke to the illiterate. He didn't make images of God to help the illiterate. He spoke. We today speak, and even go to the lengths of teaching them to read / understand words, so they can rely on the bible. Jesus also did not kiss statues to venerate His Heavenly Father or earthly mother, or venerate the prophet Moses, or venerate the father of the faith Abraham. To do so would communicate to a lost person that the idol worship of their own culture is acceptable to continue to do, and if they convert, acceptable to do to the Living God. It is not. It's a useless practice. Kissing images of gods, like I quoted from scripture (Hosea 13:2; 1 Kings 19:18), was the pagan thing. We're not to be like the nations.
If what we do resembles the culture of a pagan/idolatrous one that existed before us, guess who the ignorant/worldly/unregenerate person gives credit to and thinks is where the truth can be found? In the pagan religions—the oldest example of the practice. This is why YHWH is so adamant about not adopting their ways. You will mislead people and give glory to their demons and idols/false beliefs, and detrimental lifestyles.
You brought up that such a stance against making images of God resembles Muslim thought. The Muslims are getting it from the commands of Moses—whom Jesus told us to obey.
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Jesus commanded us to obey what's preached from Moses' seat. I've no interest in deliberately going against what Jesus told us—His disciples—to do. For the record, what is preached from Moses' seat:
Exodus 18:13-16 (NIV)
13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”
15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”
God's commands. God's decrees and instructions.
Unfortunately, yes, the Muslims are being more obedient in this area (not making images of God) than the majority of Christians (but Muslims deviate as well: they take it to another extreme because they exalt Muhammad as a true prophet of God, and won't even allow images of a prophet to be made, even if no one is praying to it, or bowing down to it. The prohibitions against making images of God do not come from Muhammad though. They come from Moses).
For the record, I do not agree that Muhammad is a prophet; Muhammad denies Jesus' divinity and denies the crucifixion even happened. I do not submit to Muhammad. I submit to Jesus, the Son of God (not just Son of Mary, but Son of God), who is the Word of God and is God. I submit to what He and His Father commanded to do. That the Muslims have a reputation of being more obedient to the idolatry prohibitions than most Christians, doesn't change that “do not make images of Me” is a command from our Heavenly Father, the Most High God. And artistic skill does not excuse us from obedience to that command (to not make images of the Creator). Bezalel and Oholiab did not make images of God.
edit:
The following is incorrect:
kattneko When Martha found Him, he did not cry, but it was Mary, the one who had sat at His feet listening so intently, the one who would pour perfume over His feet, who brought Him to tears.
Jesus didn't cry because of Mary. He was deeply moved upon seeing that Lazarus was buried and dead.
John 11:35-39 (NIV)
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”
37 But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”
38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
And if one's point was to illustrate that Jesus did cry, quoting John 11:35 would suffice.
Why is it that every single thing has to have a massive reply from you? I can write that the sky is blue and you will proceed to correct me and hammer me over the head. I was really looking forward to this guild but you have pushed me further and further away. You hammer me over the head about posts in other threads. I am done with you. I am done with this. Congrats. You've pushed one out. I wanted to come here for fellowship and instead was called a pagan, was told that my religion is a cult and when I tried to teach about my religion and culture was slammed down. So, Well done reaching out to people. You have pushed one out. How does pushing people away from a community of God taste? Hmm? |
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:12 pm
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kattneko Why is it that every single thing has to have a massive reply from you? I can write that the sky is blue and you will proceed to correct me and hammer me over the head. I was really looking forward to this guild but you have pushed me further and further away. You hammer me over the head about posts in other threads. I am done with you. I am done with this. Congrats. You've pushed one out. I wanted to come here for fellowship and instead was called a pagan, was told that my religion is a cult and when I tried to teach about my religion and culture was slammed down. So, Well done reaching out to people. You have pushed one out. How does pushing people away from a community of God taste? Hmm?
Because, like you said, you can't just say a snippet and expect people to understand. You asked for reasoning, so I gave you reasoning. You asked to read the whole letter of the Galatians (which is several chapters long, thus lengthy) but can't handle a single post of mine because of its length? You say you want gifts to be respected, but you won't respect mine—the gift of teaching—and in the form it manifests. You say one thing, and do another.
I've been explaining verses to you. This is what I do. If you don't like what the bible says, if you don't like truth, if you don't like error being pointed out, if you don't like it when traditions are shot down if they nullify a command, then you won't like my replies.
You may have said it sarcastically, but yes the sky isn't blue; it just appears blue to our eyes at certain times of day because of the sun's position in the sky, and how the light scatters in the air; other times the sky is orange, other times the sky looks black: a two-minute video that explains why that is: http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2014/10/29/why-the-sun-isnt-yellow-and-the-sky-isnt-blue/
Like I said, I'm about truth. If you don't like to hear it, you will find me annoying. |
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:19 pm
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:21 pm
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SARL0 woah you guys! hey. i'm just gonna say... i see both of your points! the chic w/ the humungous posts, i dont even read them. sorry. they just dont seem like how ppl communicate, y'know? and as far as forums and guilds and posting and whatnot, i just see this as another medium of communication. sooo... as far as communication goes.. i see it as one person says something, then the other person responds w/ something, like taking turns and like equal / equal. i see the way you communicate as very unbalanced & can be obviously overwhelming to ppl as we're witnessing w/ the OP's response to your post. However, you're not pushing me away from anything except your style of communication. As for the OP, well... i dont mind proof texting and i also believe that the Bible should be taken in context too.
Just to let you know, Katt left the guild. And this topic was an attempt to evade (or deem unacceptable) the conversation in the Roman Catholicism thread. In order to illustrate a distinction between proof-texting and what I was doing, I showed examples (ergo my replies above). Proof-texting is an unacceptable practice because people use it to support a stance that the bible doesn't support at all, but by misquoting, or partially quoting a sentence, dishonestly, they distort the intended meaning. Thus, why I went through the trouble of illustrating, explaining, reasoning, as requested.
As for large posts not being how people communicate: the very existence of the bible refutes that. The apostles wrote letters to each other back and forth. Their letters, if you remove chapters and verses (even remove paragraphs like some Greek manuscripts lack), would look like a giant wall of text as well. They weren't divided into chapters and verses, and they were read in one go. The writings were read outloud to whole congregations, even letters that weren't directed at their specific assembly of believers...
Colossians 4:16 (NIV)
16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.
The letter to the Colossians is four chapters long. The Colossians in turn would read the letter sent to Laodicea (even though the writing wasn't about the Colossians themselves nor written to the Colossians). The whole letter would be read. (Chapters and verses are a modern invention for the ease of referring to certain parts of a letter.)
And not just the bible, but newspaper articles, explanations in textbooks, blog posts—they're all forms of communication. People who inform and explain often do so with many words.
Unfortunately, the attitude of "TL;DR" (too long; didn't read), which exists both on the internet and offline too, is a problem and the cause of so much misunderstanding of the bible in the first place—online and offline. Part of not conforming to the pattern of the world is not conforming to the ways of the internet. If you wish to understand certain topics and certain people, then please do make an effort to hear what is being said, or you may make an erroneous assessment of what is being addressed.
Romans 12:2 (NIV)
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Proverbs 18:13 (NIV)
13 To answer before listening—
that is folly and shame.
Ephesians 4:11-14 (NIV)
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
2 Corinthians 10:5 (NIV)
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
edit:
Considering that the topic of cherry-picking / proof-texting itself has been sufficiently addressed, I'll be locking the thread out of respect for Katt not wishing to be a part of this guild anymore—and to prevent this topic from digressing into something unedifying. |
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:21 am
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Reply
