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What if Jesus meant every word He said? 

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What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation? Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

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Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:19 am
The synagogue of Satan is mentioned twice in Revelation, once in Jesus’ letter to the first-century church in Smyrna and once to the church in Philadelphia. In both cases, the synagogue of Satan is opposed to the mission and message of the church.

To the church in Smyrna, Jesus says, “I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9).

To the church of Philadelphia in Asia Minor, Jesus says, “I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you” (Revelation 3:9).

Continue reading.

Worth highlighting;
Internet searches of “synagogue of Satan” produce quite a few links to sites that claim the “synagogue of Satan” refers to the Jewish people today and that promote all kinds of conspiracy theories about how the Jews run the world. Quite frankly, this is a misinterpretation and misapplication of the verses in Revelation. The synagogue of Satan refers to specific Jewish communities in Smyrna and Philadelphia that were persecuting the church, not to any modern situation. Likewise, no modern situation should be used as an interpretive tool to explain a passage firmly rooted in the first-century Roman world.  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:17 am
And if they apply it to modern situations, then it should be the same circumstance in spirit: Jews denying other Jews from fellowshiping with them, because of their belief in the Messiah, and this resulting in no safe haven for those Jews who believe in Jesus.

For example, I read [an article] that said Messianic Jews were being denied aliyah to Israel because they believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but Israel was accepting other Jews into Israel even if they were Buddhist and Atheist. emotion_sweatdrop I responded that people shouldn't be so upset, because if the people who are being gathered there are non-believers (in all the various manifestations that unbelief manifests) then maybe the body of Christ shouldn't be so eager to join them. Maybe it's mercy, Jesus protecting us, because in Zechariah 14, it is prophesied that YHWH will gather all the nations to come against Jerusalem and attack her (rape, exile, etc) and if this is end times Israel, and she is being populated by unbelieving Jews, then they're just storing up wrath for themselves. All the more because they're not obeying Torah that says to eliminate idolators from the nation of Israel / the set-apart community of believers, but are allowing them to set up their idolatry (e.g. set up Buddhist centers in Israel).

Ultimately, some believers are destined for martyrdom anyway. People were complaining because of how increasingly dangerous it is to practice their faith in other nations and wanted to seek refuge in Israel (but were being denied). However, no matter where we reside, YHWH—and walking in His Commands—is our protection, not the physical plot of land known as Israel (whether we live or die, it works out for our good; whether He wants us to survive the attack and prove He is protecting us too amongst the uncircumcised-in-heart gentiles, or whether He wants us to prove our faith via martyrdom, that Jesus is worth dying for, dying in the hands of the enemy, while peacefully holding on to Jesus and the Commands). Perhaps this is how He'll prove that He has loved us despite our not being in the physical nation of Israel.
 

cristobela
Vice Captain


CherieBunnie

Sugary Hourglass

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:48 am
cristobela
And if they apply it to modern situations, then it should be the same circumstance in spirit: Jews denying other Jews from fellowshiping with them, because of their belief in the Messiah, and this resulting in no safe haven for those Jews who believe in Jesus.

For example, I read [an article] that said Messianic Jews were being denied aliyah to Israel because they believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but Israel was accepting other Jews into Israel even if they were Buddhist and Atheist. emotion_sweatdrop I responded that people shouldn't be so upset, because if the people who are being gathered there are non-believers (in all the various manifestations that unbelief manifests) then maybe the body of Christ shouldn't be so eager to join them. Maybe it's mercy, Jesus protecting us, because in Zechariah 14, it is prophesied that YHWH will gather all the nations to come against Jerusalem and attack her (rape, exile, etc) and if this is end times Israel, and she is being populated by unbelieving Jews, then they're just storing up wrath for themselves. All the more because they're not obeying Torah that says to eliminate idolators from the nation of Israel / the set-apart community of believers, but are allowing them to set up their idolatry (e.g. set up Buddhist centers in Israel).


This is interesting. I didn't know there were 'Messianic' Jews. Do they believe all of the new testament? What are their doctrines like? What do you think of them?

cristobela
Ultimately, some believers are destined for martyrdom anyway. People were complaining because of how increasingly dangerous it is to practice their faith in other nations and wanted to seek refuge in Israel (but were being denied). However, no matter where we reside, YHWH—and walking in His Commands—is our protection, not the physical plot of land known as Israel (whether we live or die, it works out for our good; whether He wants us to survive the attack and prove He is protecting us too amongst the uncircumcised-in-heart gentiles, or whether He wants us to prove our faith via martyrdom, that Jesus is worth dying for, dying in the hands of the enemy, while peacefully holding on to Jesus and the Commands). Perhaps this is how He'll prove that He has loved us despite our not being in the physical nation of Israel.


Amen to this. This is exactly true.  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:34 pm
edit on 11/6/2017: to change image hosting
CherieBunnie
cristobela
And if they apply it to modern situations, then it should be the same circumstance in spirit: Jews denying other Jews from fellowshiping with them, because of their belief in the Messiah, and this resulting in no safe haven for those Jews who believe in Jesus.

For example, I read [an article] that said Messianic Jews were being denied aliyah to Israel because they believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but Israel was accepting other Jews into Israel even if they were Buddhist and Atheist. emotion_sweatdrop I responded that people shouldn't be so upset, because if the people who are being gathered there are non-believers (in all the various manifestations that unbelief manifests) then maybe the body of Christ shouldn't be so eager to join them. Maybe it's mercy, Jesus protecting us, because in Zechariah 14, it is prophesied that YHWH will gather all the nations to come against Jerusalem and attack her (rape, exile, etc) and if this is end times Israel, and she is being populated by unbelieving Jews, then they're just storing up wrath for themselves. All the more because they're not obeying Torah that says to eliminate idolators from the nation of Israel / the set-apart community of believers, but are allowing them to set up their idolatry (e.g. set up Buddhist centers in Israel).


This is interesting. I didn't know there were 'Messianic' Jews. Do they believe all of the new testament? What are their doctrines like? What do you think of them?


Yes, I can't speak for all of them, because I haven't crossed paths with all of them, but in general they believe all of the New Testament, for example, Jews for Jesus. They live in obedience to the Commands of God while maintaining faith in Jesus as the Christ / Messiah, and respecting what Jesus' disciples/apostles taught and passed on to us. Anyone in Christ should be doing all of the above; in this they do not differ from other (obedient) Christian denominations.

A difference though: Messianic Jews also keep traditions outside of the Commands of God (like Purim and Hannukah) that God's Commands don't prohibit nor mandate we observe (though you can find both celebrations mentioned in the Scriptures [Purim in the Book of Esther [Esther 9:20-32], and Hannukah / Festival of Lights / Festival of Dedication in the gospel of John [John 10:22]).

Some Messianic congregations hold to traditions which are entirely unstable in light of of what Scripture says, e.g. writing "God" as "G-d" to avoid blaspheming His Name, though in your mind you read that as "God" anyway, so that's just ridiculous/nonsensical. YHWH didn't prohibit us from using His Name, full stop. And we take His Name in vain in various ways (calling ourselves by His Name, but not living up to our promises; we're suppose to reflect His promise-keeping nature. When we don't, we profane [make common, of no effect, make nothing special] of swearing in His Name, or merely saying we would do something [as a Christian we cannot be like the world who speaks things they don't mean; let your yes be yes and your no be no i.e. Matthew 5:37]. We also take His Name in vain, make Him appear common/profane/useless, as if He were some useless idol, when we adopt the spiritual ways of the nations and make Him look like an extension of pagan spiritual practices—both Messianic and other Christian denominations are guilty of committing this).

On that note, and to demonstrate the above, looking at the Jews for Jesus website, I noticed they seem to misguidedly think that Christmas is acceptable, and something legitimately Christian/Israelite/Biblical, despite the practices involved, and the date of Christmas, being taken from winter solstice celebrations (pagan religion); the date as well nullifies the details in the gospels about the night of Jesus' birth.

I'll provide the Scriptures below, in a spoiler tag, that demonstrate how adopting such things is prohibited, that we cannot take the spiritual practices of the pagans and use it to honor the Most High. Also included, extra-Biblical historical information from Christian dictionaries and encyclopedias corroborating that we knowingly absorbed their pagan traditions. YHWH explicitly forbade that in the Commands. The apostle Paul echoes this disapproval of holiday celebrations that belonged to the idols of the world (of which Santa/Odin are).


Paul

      • Galatians 4:8-11 (NIV)

        8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[a]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

        Footnotes:

        a. Galatians 4:9 Or principles



These days honor false gods. (Note: this passage cannot be applied to the holy days of God commanded in the Torah because Paul himself continued observing those days under the New Covenant, thus God's days are not what he's condemning here)

e.g.

        Keeping Passover with Gentiles Under the New Covenant

      • 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 (NIV)

        7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


        Keeping Pentecost in Jerusalem
        note: "Pentecost" is the Greek name for "Shavuot" (Hebrew); its English name is "Feast of Weeks". It is described in Leviticus 23:15-22

        Shavuot [...] known as the Feast of Weeks in English and as Pentecost (Πεντηκοστή) in Ancient Greek, is a Jewish holiday that occurs on the sixth day of the Hebrew month of Sivan (may fall between 14 May–15 June).[1]

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot


      • Acts 20:16 (NIV)

        16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost.


These observances can only be kept in Jerusalem because they involved animal sacrifices. Once the Israelites inherited the promised land, they were to stop sacrificing in just any ol' place, but only offer the physical sacrifices at the place God said to, which eventually came to be Jerusalem e.g. Deut. 12:8-14.

      • Deuteronomy 12:8-14 (NIV)

        8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the Lord. 12 And there rejoice before the Lord your God—you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levites from your towns who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 13 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. 14 Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.


Ergo, Paul rushing to keep this in Jerusalem.

In contrast, spiritual sacrifices (prayer, praise, lips that openly profess His Name, good deeds, can be done anywhere: Acts 10:4; Psalm 141:2; Hosea 14:2; Hebrew 13:15; 1 Peter 2:5). So, if Paul is rushing to keep a feast day in Jerusalem specifically, it's because literal, physical sacrifices are involved (note he's doing this long after the New Covenant was established; Jesus had ascended into the clouds back in Acts 1 and left; this observance is being kept in Acts 20. So keeping God's days as long as the temple is up in Jerusalem is not being taught against, keeping idolatrous days, the idolatrous practices we left behind [or were suppose to leave behind] are being condemned).



The Commands

I'll provide both the Commands, and a passage demonstrating a general principle, that we're not suppose to adopt the spiritual practices of the pagans—even if we make YHWH the reason behind our doing so—because there should be a clear distinction about Who we worship, no traces to other gods/idols whatsoever (note: the first two passages are about Israel inheriting territory as a nation, but in spirit, this would apply to whatever domain comes under our ownership: our house, our room, our profile page, our heart—it is to be devoid of pagan ways of worship).

      • Deuteronomy 12:2-4 (NIV)

        2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.

        4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way.

      • Deuteronomy 12:30-31 (NIV)

        30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

      • Jeremiah 10:2 (NIV)

        2 This is what the Lord says:
        “Do not learn the ways of the nations

        or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
        though the nations are terrified by them.

      • Leviticus 20:26 (NIV)

        26 You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

      • Joshua 24:15 (NIV)

        15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”


Where there is a disconnect in people's minds is what "worshiping a god" looked like: it's as simple as taking part in the cultural practices that honors the god/goddess/idol. Thus why YHWH forbade us from taking the practice, even if we stripped it of idol names, and did it in His Name / Honor. This not only applies to the outright detrimental practices, like burning your child alive in fire to worship Him, or cutting yourself to get His attention, but even the nothing-but-useless ones [like repeating a prayer 100 times in mantra-like fashion; it's a waste of time, He heard you the first time, even in un-uttered prayer said in your heart, because He sees the thoughts of your innermost being).

      • Matthew 6:7-8 (NIV)

        7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

      • Genesis 6:5 (NIV)

        5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.


So, it's useless to pray in their ways (thus why YHWH Commanded against it). He's not a God of uselessness, but by adopting their ways, that's exactly what we communicate. We're not actually giving honor to YHWH by taking a spiritually-pagan practice that is foreign to Him, and making Him the focus, because the idea came from the idolatrous practice, not Him, thus it does not honor Him the Way He said He wanted to be worshiped. It gives validation to the idolatrous thought, not to YHWH's truth. Plus it makes Him seem like the other spirits and/or idols (false notions of God) that mislead people into detrimental, if not useless, practices. We would be honoring the idol by partaking in the religious custom inspired by the idol, even if the names—object of worship—have been changed.

That established:


The Extra-Biblical History:

Christian encyclopedias and dictionaries documenting that Christians have done this anyway (ergo, in disobedience to the Commands):

  • Gradually a number of prevailing practices of the nations into which Christianity came were assimilated and were combined with the religious ceremonies surrounding Christmas. The assimilation of such practices generally represented efforts by Christians to transform or absorb otherwise pagan practices. The Feast of Saturnalia in early Rome, for example, was celebrated for 7 days from the 17th to the 24th of December and was marked by a spirit of merriment, gift giving to children and other forms of entertainment. Gradually, early Christians replaced the pagan feast with the celebration of Christmas; but many of the traditions of this observance were assimilated and remain to this day a part of the observance of Christmas. Other NATIONS, the Scandinavians, Germans, French, English and others, have left their mark . . . as well (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible) (pp. 804, 805).

  • Various symbolic elements of the pagan celebration, such as the lighting of candles, evergreen decorations, and the giving of gifts, were adapted to Christian signification. Later as Christianity spread into northern Europe, the Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavic winter festivals contributed holly mistletoe, the Christmas tree, bonfires, and similar items. (The Christian Encyclopedia)

  • The giving of presents was a Roman custom; while the Yule tree and Yule log are remnants of old Teutonic nature worship. Gradually the festival sank into mere revelry . . . . The custom was forbidden by an act of parliament in 1555; And the reformation brought in a refinement in the celebration of Christmas by emphasizing it Christian elements. (Unger's Bible Dictionary)

  • Many of the customs associated with Christmas also took their origins from the heathen observances. The exchanging of gifts, extravagant merriment, and lighting of candles all have previous counterparts in the Roman Saturnalia. The use of trees harkens back to the pagan Scandinavian festival of Yule. ~James Taylor, "Christmas," in The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church (J. D. Douglas, ed.; Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1974), p. 223.


Quotes from Christian dictionaries and encyclopedias taken from this video series who put in the research: [Sunburned - Part 1]. They also included secular sources of information that agree.

What the above means is that somewhere down the line, some Christian(s) one day decided: "we know that this pagan tradition honors ______ , but no, let's make it about our Heavenly Father and Jesus" thus breaking that Command of our Father to not adopt their ways nor make Him the focus of their ways.



Night of His Birth
Biblical Information

The gospels themselves rule out the winter season as the date of Christ's birth because:

(1) according to Luke's gospel, on the night of His birth, the shepherds were out in the fields keeping watch over their flocks at night Luke 2:8-12 (it snows, if not rains heavily, during these months in Israel [shepherds wouldn't be out at night with their flocks during winter]); so, His birth cannot be ascribed to a December 25th date, let alone the winter season, and

(2) the reason Mary gave birth in a manger in Bethlehem (and not her house in Nazareth) was because Caesar Augustus decreed a census be conducted of the entire Roman world (the areas under their Roman rule, of which Israel was under at the time), so everyone had to travel back to their home town for this census (thus Joseph going back to Bethlehem with his wife, Mary); no one is going to conduct a census in the middle of winter, and yet Jesus was born during this census.

Both of these details are described in [Luke 2].


Extra-Biblical Information

The December 25th date has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity from an extra-Biblical perspective as well; it was Mithra's birthday, not the Biblical Jesus' birth date:

        Mithras [...] birth was celebrated on December 25th, but the first Christians knew this was not the true date of Christ’s birth anyway, and both Mithraic worshippers and the early Roman Church borrowed this celebration from earlier winter solstice celebrations.

        http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/


        "December 25 is referred to in documents as Christmas Day in A.D. 324 for the first time. Under the Roman emperor Justinian [A.D. 527-565] it was recognized as an official holiday. An old Roman festival played a major part in the choice of this particular day. December 25 in ancient Rome was the 'Dies Natali Invictus,' 'the birthday of the unconquered,' the day of the winter solstice and at the same time, in Rome, the last day of the Saturnalia, which had long since degenerated into a week of unbridled carnival..." (p. 331). The Bible as History by Werner Keller

        http://www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm


So, what happened? Why is Christmas associated with Christ? Because Christian individuals syncretised themselves with the pagan, religious and nature-worshipping practices of the nations. The December 25th festivity was adopted by Christians as an alternative celebration to what was going in pagan circles during this time, to make it easier for converting pagans to leave their pagan religions behind. But in doing so, Christians are speaking against the very gospel they're trying to promote by choosing such a date. And they're speaking against the concept and practice of "holy living" (set-apart from the nation's spiritual practices) by adopting the very same pagan practices we're actually telling the pagans to leave (we can't be set-apart by borrowing/taking inspiration from them—it's prohibited. Instead of making it obvious that YHWH is distinctly different from the entities and idols that the nations worship, we would make it seem like we're all worshiping the same thing. And that's dishonest because the God described in the Bible has Commands that the pagan religions do not, and whose lifestyles, thoughts, attitudes, lusts, and behaviors the Biblical God condemns).

That said, as you can see, it's only by name that "Christmas" has anything to do with Christ because when you analyze it for what actually goes on, from the date of the celebration down to the rituals and decorations, they reflect pagan religion and has nothing to do with Jesus (we're not allowed to make images of God in the first place because we haven't seen him, i.e. Deut 4:15-18; that's what the pagans do of their gods, not us i.e. Psalm 115:2-4),

      • Deuteronomy 4:15-18 (NIV)

        15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

      • Psalm 115:2-4 (NIV)

        2 Why do the nations say,
            “Where is their God?”
        3 Our God is in heaven;
            he does whatever pleases him.
        4 But their idols are silver and gold,
            made by human hands.


Biblically, the Israelites would have no images of God to show when pagans asked to see their God (in contrast, the pagans would fabricate images of the one they claimed to worship). We're not suppose to be like the pagans.



Santa Claus

Now, Santa Claus himself: he is not Jesus Christ. Santa Claus is based on Odin—the norse God, who is depicted as an old man with a long white beard. He rides an 8-legged horse named Sleipnir (which is where Santa's 8 reindeer came from; Rudolph, the ninth reindeer, was added in later).

User Image

source: [link]

Wiki Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir


Santa Claus is based on a norse God, Odin [and even if he were based on Jesus, we're not suppose to make images of Jesus anyway, so the image of Santa Claus has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity whatsoever), Nor does December 25th have anything to do with Christ's birth in light of the history documented in the Bible. What Christmas comes from is Saturnalia and Yule. And that red cap Santa wears? It's a Phrygian cap: from Mithra worship (from whom we get the December 25th date from in the first place).

User Image

source: [link]

User Image

source: [link]


Clearly, just because cultural practices associate with Christianity doesn't necessarily mean they legtimately are; Christians have strayed from Scripture to say the least. Living holy, what holiness is—living set-apart from the spiritual customs of the pagans—is not something that is often taught (because many a church [and the Christians within it] commits this sin of mixing with the ways of the nations and delights in it); we have to read about it in Scripture for ourselves to finally expose this behavior.

To their credit, I don't think most Christians do this on purpose. After a few generations of having mixed, the new generation growing up wouldn't detect that this thing being done in Jesus' Name actually violated the Commands ("I just grew up doing it in the Name of Jesus; it's culture, it's what we've always done." Oh, it might seem that way, but it isn't. And it fails to live up to God's call to holy living.


For the record, with the exception of the Paul section, the rest of what was included in the spoiler above I had already posted a few days ago to someone who asked why Santa-esque celebrations do not honor Jesus' birth. And he asked because I mentioned I don't partake in Xmas events on Gaia, and other Gaia celebrations honoring the easter bunny, Halloween/Samhain, elves and fairies, the Greek Gods / Romans Gods [cupid/eros] etc).

Christmas is also one of the idolatrous things Israel is accepting with open arms in their streets [Despite wave of terrorism, the Christmas spirit lives on in Jerusalem for residents and visitors], as well as Halloween , the latter of which comes from the Celtic Druids, a pagan tradition that Catholics tried to Christianize (in disobedience to the Commands) thus storing up wrath for God's judgment for adopting all this paganism. They have no discernment to see that the attacks from ISIS are God sending the sword judgment against them for their idolatry / their acceptance of the spiritual practices of the nations that God called us to be separate from. (I went over God's judgments in this topic [The Divine Judgments of God] if you're interested to know what they all are).

Depending on the Messianic Congregation you look into, they might believe slightly different than another Messianic congregation (like any other Christian denomination today may vary from others, some are just differences in tradition, others, like what I covered above, are outright sinful deviances). More important than their peculiar doctrines is whether or not they violate the Word of God in what they do. You would have to assess all their doctrinal statements in light of the Word of God to see if it's truly acceptable.
 

cristobela
Vice Captain


CherieBunnie

Sugary Hourglass

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:21 pm
cristobela
CherieBunnie
cristobela
And if they apply it to modern situations, then it should be the same circumstance in spirit: Jews denying other Jews from fellowshiping with them, because of their belief in the Messiah, and this resulting in no safe haven for those Jews who believe in Jesus.

For example, I read [an article] that said Messianic Jews were being denied aliyah to Israel because they believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but Israel was accepting other Jews into Israel even if they were Buddhist and Atheist. emotion_sweatdrop I responded that people shouldn't be so upset, because if the people who are being gathered there are non-believers (in all the various manifestations that unbelief manifests) then maybe the body of Christ shouldn't be so eager to join them. Maybe it's mercy, Jesus protecting us, because in Zechariah 14, it is prophesied that YHWH will gather all the nations to come against Jerusalem and attack her (rape, exile, etc) and if this is end times Israel, and she is being populated by unbelieving Jews, then they're just storing up wrath for themselves. All the more because they're not obeying Torah that says to eliminate idolators from the nation of Israel / the set-apart community of believers, but are allowing them to set up their idolatry (e.g. set up Buddhist centers in Israel).


This is interesting. I didn't know there were 'Messianic' Jews. Do they believe all of the new testament? What are their doctrines like? What do you think of them?


Yes, I can't speak for all of them, because I haven't crossed paths with all of them, but in general they believe all of the New Testament, for example, Jews for Jesus. They live in obedience to the Commands of God while maintaining faith in Jesus as the Christ / Messiah, and respecting what Jesus' disciples/apostles taught and passed on to us. Anyone in Christ should be doing all of the above; in this they do not differ from other (obedient) Christian denominations.


The statement of faith on that particular website sounds about right.

cristobela
A difference though: Messianic Jews also keep traditions outside of the Commands of God (like Purim and Hannukah) that God's Commands don't prohibit nor mandate we observe (though you can find both celebrations mentioned in the Scriptures [Purim in the Book of Esther [Esther 9:20-32], and Hannukah / Festival of Lights / Festival of Dedication in the gospel of John [John 10:22]).


I think I understood that some Jews in the time of Jesus who believed in Him still held to some of the traditional Israelite practices, the carnal ordinances. Touch not, taste not, handle not. And the sabbath and other holy days. But yeah, the Bible specifically says those things aren't necessary.

cristobela
Some Messianic congregations hold to traditions which are entirely unstable in light of of what Scripture says, e.g. writing "God" as "G-d" to avoid blaspheming His Name, though in your mind you read that as "God" anyway, so that's just ridiculous/nonsensical. YHWH didn't prohibit us from using His Name, full stop. And we take His Name in vain in various ways (calling ourselves by His Name, but not living up to our promises; we're suppose to reflect His promise-keeping nature. When we don't, we profane [make common, of no effect, make nothing special] of swearing in His Name, or merely saying we would do something [as a Christian we cannot be like the world who speaks things they don't mean; let your yes be yes and your no be no i.e. Matthew 5:37]. We also take His Name in vain, make Him appear common/profane/useless, as if He were some useless idol, when we adopt the spiritual ways of the nations and make Him look like an extension of pagan spiritual practices—both Messianic and other Christian denominations are guilty of committing this).

On that note, and to demonstrate the above, looking at the Jews for Jesus website, I noticed they seem to misguidedly think that Christmas is acceptable, and something legitimately Christian/Israelite/Biblical, despite the practices involved, and the date of Christmas, being taken from winter solstice celebrations (pagan religion); the date as well nullifies the details in the gospels about the night of Jesus' birth.

I'll provide the Scriptures below, in a spoiler tag, that demonstrate how adopting such things is prohibited, that we cannot take the spiritual practices of the pagans and use it to honor the Most High. Also included, extra-Biblical historical information from Christian dictionaries and encyclopedias corroborating that we knowingly absorbed their pagan traditions. YHWH explicitly forbade that in the Commands. The apostle Paul echoes this disapproval of holiday celebrations that belonged to the idols of the world (of which Santa/Odin are).

Paul

      • Galatians 4:8-11 (NIV)

        8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[a]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

        Footnotes:

        a. Galatians 4:9 Or principles



These days honor false gods. (Note: this passage cannot be applied to the holy days of God commanded in the Torah because Paul himself continued observing those days under the New Covenant, thus God's days are not what he's condemning here)

e.g.

        Keeping Passover with Gentiles Under the New Covenant

      • 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 (NIV)

        7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


        Keeping Pentecost in Jerusalem
        note: "Pentecost" is the Greek name for "Shavuot" (Hebrew); its English name is "Feast of Weeks". It is described in Leviticus 23:15-22

        Shavuot [...] known as the Feast of Weeks in English and as Pentecost (Πεντηκοστή) in Ancient Greek, is a Jewish holiday that occurs on the sixth day of the Hebrew month of Sivan (may fall between 14 May–15 June).[1]

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot


      • Acts 20:16 (NIV)

        16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost.


These observances can only be kept in Jerusalem because they involved animal sacrifices. Once the Israelites inherited the promised land, they were to stop sacrificing in just any ol' place, but only offer the physical sacrifices at the place God said to, which eventually came to be Jerusalem e.g. Deut. 12:8-14.

      • Deuteronomy 12:8-14 (NIV)

        8 You are not to do as we do here today, everyone doing as they see fit, 9 since you have not yet reached the resting place and the inheritance the Lord your God is giving you. 10 But you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety. 11 Then to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the Lord. 12 And there rejoice before the Lord your God—you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levites from your towns who have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 13 Be careful not to sacrifice your burnt offerings anywhere you please. 14 Offer them only at the place the Lord will choose in one of your tribes, and there observe everything I command you.


Ergo, Paul rushing to keep this in Jerusalem.

In contrast, spiritual sacrifices (prayer, praise, lips that openly profess His Name, good deeds, can be done anywhere: Acts 10:4; Psalm 141:2; Hosea 14:2; Hebrew 13:15; 1 Peter 2:5). So, if Paul is rushing to keep a feast day in Jerusalem specifically, it's because literal, physical sacrifices are involved (note he's doing this long after the New Covenant was established; Jesus had ascended into the clouds back in Acts 1 and left; this observance is being kept in Acts 20. So keeping God's days as long as the temple is up in Jerusalem is not being taught against, keeping idolatrous days, the idolatrous practices we left behind [or were suppose to leave behind] are being condemned).



The Commands

I'll provide both the Commands, and a passage demonstrating a general principle, that we're not suppose to adopt the spiritual practices of the pagans—even if we make YHWH the reason behind our doing so—because there should be a clear distinction about Who we worship, no traces to other gods/idols whatsoever (note: the first two passages are about Israel inheriting territory as a nation, but in spirit, this would apply to whatever domain comes under our ownership: our house, our room, our profile page, our heart—it is to be devoid of pagan ways of worship).

      • Deuteronomy 12:2-4 (NIV)

        2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.

        4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way.

      • Deuteronomy 12:30-31 (NIV)

        30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

      • Jeremiah 10:2 (NIV)

        2 This is what the Lord says:
        “Do not learn the ways of the nations

        or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
        though the nations are terrified by them.

      • Leviticus 20:26 (NIV)

        26 You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

      • Joshua 24:15 (NIV)

        15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”


Where there is a disconnect in people's minds is what "worshiping a god" looked like: it's as simple as taking part in the cultural practices that honors the god/goddess/idol. Thus why YHWH forbade us from taking the practice, even if we stripped it of idol names, and did it in His Name / Honor. This not only applies to the outright detrimental practices, like burning your child alive in fire to worship Him, or cutting yourself to get His attention, but even the nothing-but-useless ones [like repeating a prayer 100 times in mantra-like fashion; it's a waste of time, He heard you the first time, even in un-uttered prayer said in your heart, because He sees the thoughts of your innermost being).

      • Matthew 6:7-8 (NIV)

        7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

      • Genesis 6:5 (NIV)

        5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.


So, it's useless to pray in their ways (thus why YHWH Commanded against it). He's not a God of uselessness, but by adopting their ways, that's exactly what we communicate. We're not actually giving honor to YHWH by taking a spiritually-pagan practice that is foreign to Him, and making Him the focus, because the idea came from the idolatrous practice, not Him, thus it does not honor Him the Way He said He wanted to be worshiped. It gives validation to the idolatrous thought, not to YHWH's truth. Plus it makes Him seem like the other spirits and/or idols (false notions of God) that mislead people into detrimental, if not useless, practices. We would be honoring the idol by partaking in the religious custom inspired by the idol, even if the names—object of worship—have been changed.

That established:


The Extra-Biblical History:

Christian encyclopedias and dictionaries documenting that Christians have done this anyway (ergo, in disobedience to the Commands):

  • Gradually a number of prevailing practices of the nations into which Christianity came were assimilated and were combined with the religious ceremonies surrounding Christmas. The assimilation of such practices generally represented efforts by Christians to transform or absorb otherwise pagan practices. The Feast of Saturnalia in early Rome, for example, was celebrated for 7 days from the 17th to the 24th of December and was marked by a spirit of merriment, gift giving to children and other forms of entertainment. Gradually, early Christians replaced the pagan feast with the celebration of Christmas; but many of the traditions of this observance were assimilated and remain to this day a part of the observance of Christmas. Other NATIONS, the Scandinavians, Germans, French, English and others, have left their mark . . . as well (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible) (pp. 804, 805).

  • Various symbolic elements of the pagan celebration, such as the lighting of candles, evergreen decorations, and the giving of gifts, were adapted to Christian signification. Later as Christianity spread into northern Europe, the Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavic winter festivals contributed holly mistletoe, the Christmas tree, bonfires, and similar items. (The Christian Encyclopedia)

  • The giving of presents was a Roman custom; while the Yule tree and Yule log are remnants of old Teutonic nature worship. Gradually the festival sank into mere revelry . . . . The custom was forbidden by an act of parliament in 1555; And the reformation brought in a refinement in the celebration of Christmas by emphasizing it Christian elements. (Unger's Bible Dictionary)

  • Many of the customs associated with Christmas also took their origins from the heathen observances. The exchanging of gifts, extravagant merriment, and lighting of candles all have previous counterparts in the Roman Saturnalia. The use of trees harkens back to the pagan Scandinavian festival of Yule. ~James Taylor, "Christmas," in The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church (J. D. Douglas, ed.; Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1974), p. 223.


Quotes from Christian dictionaries and encyclopedias taken from this video series who put in the research: [Sunburned - Part 1]. They also included secular sources of information that agree.

What the above means is that somewhere down the line, some Christian(s) one day decided: "we know that this pagan tradition honors ______ , but no, let's make it about our Heavenly Father and Jesus" thus breaking that Command of our Father to not adopt their ways nor make Him the focus of their ways.



Night of His Birth
Biblical Information

The gospels themselves rule out the winter season as the date of Christ's birth because:

(1) according to Luke's gospel, on the night of His birth, the shepherds were out in the fields keeping watch over their flocks at night Luke 2:8-12 (it snows, if not rains heavily, during these months in Israel [shepherds wouldn't be out at night with their flocks during winter]); so, His birth cannot be ascribed to a December 25th date, let alone the winter season, and

(2) the reason Mary gave birth in a manger in Bethlehem (and not her house in Nazareth) was because Caesar Augustus decreed a census be conducted of the entire Roman world (the areas under their Roman rule, of which Israel was under at the time), so everyone had to travel back to their home town for this census (thus Joseph going back to Bethlehem with his wife, Mary); no one is going to conduct a census in the middle of winter, and yet Jesus was born during this census.

Both of these details are described in [Luke 2].


Extra-Biblical Information

The December 25th date has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity from an extra-Biblical perspective as well; it was Mithra's birthday, not the Biblical Jesus' birth date:

        Mithras [...] birth was celebrated on December 25th, but the first Christians knew this was not the true date of Christ’s birth anyway, and both Mithraic worshippers and the early Roman Church borrowed this celebration from earlier winter solstice celebrations.

        http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/


        "December 25 is referred to in documents as Christmas Day in A.D. 324 for the first time. Under the Roman emperor Justinian [A.D. 527-565] it was recognized as an official holiday. An old Roman festival played a major part in the choice of this particular day. December 25 in ancient Rome was the 'Dies Natali Invictus,' 'the birthday of the unconquered,' the day of the winter solstice and at the same time, in Rome, the last day of the Saturnalia, which had long since degenerated into a week of unbridled carnival..." (p. 331). The Bible as History by Werner Keller

        http://www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm


So, what happened? Why is Christmas associated with Christ? Because Christian individuals syncretised themselves with the pagan, religious and nature-worshipping practices of the nations. The December 25th festivity was adopted by Christians as an alternative celebration to what was going in pagan circles during this time, to make it easier for converting pagans to leave their pagan religions behind. But in doing so, Christians are speaking against the very gospel they're trying to promote by choosing such a date. And they're speaking against the concept and practice of "holy living" (set-apart from the nation's spiritual practices) by adopting the very same pagan practices we're actually telling the pagans to leave (we can't be set-apart by borrowing/taking inspiration from them—it's prohibited. Instead of making it obvious that YHWH is distinctly different from the entities and idols that the nations worship, we would make it seem like we're all worshiping the same thing. And that's dishonest because the God described in the Bible has Commands that the pagan religions do not, and whose lifestyles, thoughts, attitudes, lusts, and behaviors the Biblical God condemns).

That said, as you can see, it's only by name that "Christmas" has anything to do with Christ because when you analyze it for what actually goes on, from the date of the celebration down to the rituals and decorations, they reflect pagan religion and has nothing to do with Jesus (we're not allowed to make images of God in the first place because we haven't seen him, i.e. Deut 4:15-18; that's what the pagans do of their gods, not us i.e. Psalm 115:2-4),

      • Deuteronomy 4:15-18 (NIV)

        15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

      • Psalm 115:2-4 (NIV)

        2 Why do the nations say,
            “Where is their God?”
        3 Our God is in heaven;
            he does whatever pleases him.
        4 But their idols are silver and gold,
            made by human hands.


Biblically, the Israelites would have no images of God to show when pagans asked to see their God (in contrast, the pagans would fabricate images of the one they claimed to worship). We're not suppose to be like the pagans.



Santa Claus

Now, Santa Claus himself: he is not Jesus Christ. Santa Claus is based on Odin—the norse God, who is depicted as an old man with a long white beard. He rides an 8-legged horse named Sleipnir (which is where Santa's 8 reindeer came from; Rudolph, the ninth reindeer, was added in later).

User Image

source: [link]

Wiki Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir


Santa Claus is based on a norse God, Odin [and even if he were based on Jesus, we're not suppose to make images of Jesus anyway, so the image of Santa Claus has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity whatsoever), Nor does December 25th have anything to do with Christ's birth in light of the history documented in the Bible. What Christmas comes from is Saturnalia and Yule. And that red cap Santa wears? It's a Phrygian cap: from Mithra worship (from whom we get the December 25th date from in the first place).

User Image

source: [link]

User Image

source: [link]


Clearly, just because cultural practices associate with Christianity doesn't necessarily mean they legtimately are; Christians have strayed from Scripture to say the least. Living holy, what holiness is—living set-apart from the spiritual customs of the pagans—is not something that is often taught (because many a church [and the Christians within it] commits this sin of mixing with the ways of the nations and delights in it); we have to read about it in Scripture for ourselves to finally expose this behavior.

To their credit, I don't think most Christians do this on purpose. After a few generations of having mixed, the new generation growing up wouldn't detect that this thing being done in Jesus' Name actually violated the Commands ("I just grew up doing it in the Name of Jesus; it's culture, it's what we've always done." Oh, it might seem that way, but it isn't. And it fails to live up to God's call to holy living.


For the record, with the exception of the Paul section, the rest of what was included in the spoiler above I had already posted a few days ago to someone who asked why Santa-esque celebrations do not honor Jesus' birth. And he asked because I mentioned I don't partake in Xmas events on Gaia, and other Gaia celebrations honoring the easter bunny, Halloween/Samhain, elves and fairies, the Greek Gods / Romans Gods [cupid/eros] etc).

Christmas is also one of the idolatrous things Israel is accepting with open arms in their streets [Despite wave of terrorism, the Christmas spirit lives on in Jerusalem for residents and visitors], as well as Halloween , the latter of which comes from the Celtic Druids, a pagan tradition that Catholics tried to Christianize (in disobedience to the Commands) thus storing up wrath for God's judgment for adopting all this paganism.


I definitely agree with all of this. I've never felt that Christmas was truly a Christian holiday. And Halloween sure as hell isn't. There's one part in the Bible that always reminds me of Christmas, though:

Jeremiah 10:2-4 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

cristobela
They have no discernment to see that the attacks from ISIS are God sending the sword judgment against them for their idolatry / their acceptance of the spiritual practices of the nations that God called us to be separate from. (I went over God's judgments in this topic [The Divine Judgments of God] if you're interested to know what they all are).


I agree that anything violent that happens to a nation could be considered judgement... But the ISIS stuff totally confuses me. Because there are so many people talking about how the US funded ISIS, or that ISIS is totally made up, and all of that talk.. I feel like I don't know what's true and what's not anymore. Granted, even so, Israel will face judgement regardless of what they tell us in the news. I believe America is soon to start facing some sort of judgement as well. We've gone untouched for a very long time.

cristobela
Depending on the Messianic Congregation you look into, they might believe slightly different than another Messianic congregation (like any other Christian denomination today may vary from others, some are just differences in tradition, others, like what I covered above, are outright sinful deviances). More important than their peculiar doctrines is whether or not they violate the Word of God in what they do. You would have to assess all their doctrinal statements in light of the Word of God to see if it's truly acceptable.


If they're not allowed in Jerusalem, where are they predominantly living? I know I see a lot of false doctrines in churches all over the place. I feel like a lot of people who could truly be saved are just being deceived right now. But the Bible says when the wolf comes, the hireling will flee. I think that's exactly what is going to have to happen before many of these people open their eyes. Tribulation will come, their false shepherds are going to flee, and they're going to have to turn from these lies to rely on Christ alone to guide them.

John 10:11-13 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:01 pm
edited
CherieBunnie
I think I understood that some Jews in the time of Jesus who believed in Him still held to some of the traditional Israelite practices, the carnal ordinances. Touch not, taste not, handle not. And the sabbath and other holy days. But yeah, the Bible specifically says those things aren't necessary.


I wouldn't equate Purim and Hanukkah, and other self-imposed customs [like not eating if they didn't do a hand-blessing ritual first] to the Holy days and dietary distinctions commanded by God Himself. This is actually a very commonly overlooked distinction that I covered in the Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored topic.

Just to give you a very small taste, Jesus is still identifying unclean animals as unclean all the way in the Book of Revelation, in agreement with the prophet Isaiah (and thus in agreement with our Heavenly Father's Law).

      • Revelation 18:2 (NIV)

        2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

        “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’[a]
            She has become a dwelling for demons
        and a haunt for every impure spirit,
            a haunt for every unclean bird,
            a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.

        Footnotes:

        a. Revelation 18:2 Isaiah 21:9


These are not self-imposed customs, whereas the hand-blessing ritual, that the Pharisees would do, is (and they would consider the food defiled if you didn't previously partake of their hand-blessing ritual, despite it being a clean animal [or acceptable plant] on the plate).

I also provided, in the Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored topic, scientific validation for Jesus still identifying unclean animals as unclean. There are very practical reasons for why that is. A similar thing is happening with how people fail to distinguish between the self-imposed days vs the days commanded by God, as you'll see if you read the aforementioned topic.



CherieBunnie
I definitely agree with all of this. I've never felt that Christmas was truly a Christian holiday. And Halloween sure as hell isn't. There's one part in the Bible that always reminds me of Christmas, though:

Jeremiah 10:2-4 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.


Yeah, I've brushed up with that verse. It's amazing how the Holy Spirit inspired that verse to both refer to idols that are carved out of wood and decorated or overlaid with gold and silver, but also sound like the custom that would come to be celebrated by bringing in an evergreen tree into one's house and decorating it like so. Kills two birds with one stone.


CherieBunnie
I agree that anything violent that happens to a nation could be considered judgement... But the ISIS stuff totally confuses me. Because there are so many people talking about how the US funded ISIS, or that ISIS is totally made up, and all of that talk.. I feel like I don't know what's true and what's not anymore. Granted, even so, Israel will face judgement regardless of what they tell us in the news. I believe America is soon to start facing some sort of judgement as well. We've gone untouched for a very long time.


Concerning what's true, or not, about ISIS:

Though humans have been known to conspire,

      • Psalm 83:3-8 (NIV)

        3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
            they plot against those you cherish.
        4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
            so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
        5 With one mind they plot together;
            they form an alliance against you—
        6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
            of Moab and the Hagrites,
        7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
            Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
        8 Even Assyria has joined them
            to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[a]

        Footnotes:

        a. Psalm 83:8 The Hebrew has Selah (a word of uncertain meaning) here.


...and the above does include Ishmaelites, which Muslims identify themselves as, still, ultimately, God is allowing ISIS to happen for a reason. He allows people to rise to power and overthrow others, especially when the one to be overthrown is in sin (as I covered in "The Divine Judgments from God" topic, e.g. both Edom and Libnah rising against Israel in revolt during Jehoram's reign, a king who walked in idolatry / forsook YHWH).

Even when people conspire and plot to assassinate other people, God is in control.

      • Isaiah 8:12-13 (NIV)

        12 “Do not call conspiracy
            everything this people calls a conspiracy;
        do not fear what they fear,
            and do not dread it.
        13 The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
            he is the one you are to fear,
            he is the one you are to dread.

      • 1 Kings 15:28-30 (NIV)

        28 Baasha killed Nadab in the third year of Asa king of Judah and succeeded him as king.

        29 As soon as he began to reign, he killed Jeroboam’s whole family. He did not leave Jeroboam anyone that breathed, but destroyed them all, according to the word of the Lord given through his servant Ahijah the Shilonite. 30 This happened because of the sins Jeroboam had committed and had caused Israel to commit, and because he aroused the anger of the Lord, the God of Israel.


Clearly, Baasha conspired to assassinate Jeroboam's whole family. Conspiracy to kill and government takeover. But it was from God because of Jeroboam's sin.

And actually, some of the nations who became enemies of Israel after Solomon's reign, had previously been militarily equipped by Solomon himself (while they were on peaceful terms / not-an-obvious-threat).

      • 1 Kings 10:28-29 (NIV)

        28 Solomon’s horses were imported from Egypt and from Kue[a]—the royal merchants purchased them from Kue at the current price. 29 They imported a chariot from Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and a horse for a hundred and fifty.[b] They also exported them to all the kings of the Hittites and of the Arameans.

        Footnotes:

        1 Kings 10:28 Probably Cilicia
        1 Kings 10:29 That is, about 3 3/4 pounds or about 1.7 kilograms

      • 2 Kings 6:8 (NIV)

        8 Now the king of Aram was at war with Israel. After conferring with his officers, he said, “I will set up my camp in such and such a place.”


But had they been walking righteously, this wouldn't have been a problem.

      • Proverbs 16:7 (NIV)

        7 When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way,
            he causes their enemies to make peace with them.


Repentance / turning away from wicked ways is the only safety. Then we wouldn't have to worry about conspiracies, or about people we formerly equipped with weapons, attacking us. God would be our protection. He controls the hearts of men and inspires them to wage war or not.

      • Isaiah 13:17 (NIV)

        17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
            who do not care for silver
            and have no delight in gold.

      • 2 Chronicles 17:10 (NIV)

        10 The fear of the Lord fell on all the kingdoms of the lands surrounding Judah, so that they did not go to war against Jehoshaphat.


---

The USA is already brushing up with God's judgment(s) if you ask me:



And that's just of the ones I've noticed.

Those who call on His Name in this country need to turn from their wicked ways and pray that God has mercy on this nation, that people come to saving faith in Him and His Word, so we can live in peace and quiet, in all godliness and holiness, and so be safe. He will relent from all these judgments if they / we repent.

edit: and we also need to make disciples of course



CherieBunnie
If they're not allowed in Jerusalem, where are they predominantly living? I know I see a lot of false doctrines in churches all over the place. I feel like a lot of people who could truly be saved are just being deceived right now. But the Bible says when the wolf comes, the hireling will flee. I think that's exactly what is going to have to happen before many of these people open their eyes. Tribulation will come, their false shepherds are going to flee, and they're going to have to turn from these lies to rely on Christ alone to guide them.

John 10:11-13 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.


They're spread out all over the place. Just look at this map from the IAMCS (International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues): http://iamcs.org/congregations

And that's just one organization, with a map that is just focusing on the Americas. Who knows where else they are worldwide. Well, God knows. 3nodding

edit: also, if you click the map, it opens up the world map sweatdrop but I'm sure there are more than that worldwide.
 

cristobela
Vice Captain


CherieBunnie

Sugary Hourglass

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:06 pm
cristobela
edited
CherieBunnie
I think I understood that some Jews in the time of Jesus who believed in Him still held to some of the traditional Israelite practices, the carnal ordinances. Touch not, taste not, handle not. And the sabbath and other holy days. But yeah, the Bible specifically says those things aren't necessary.


I wouldn't equate Purim and Hanukkah, and other self-imposed customs [like not eating if they didn't do a hand-blessing ritual first] to the Holy days and dietary distinctions commanded by God Himself. This is actually a very commonly overlooked distinction that I covered in the Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored topic.

Just to give you a very small taste, Jesus is still identifying unclean animals as unclean all the way in the Book of Revelation, in agreement with the prophet Isaiah (and thus in agreement with our Heavenly Father's Law).

      • Revelation 18:2 (NIV)

        2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

        “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’[a]
            She has become a dwelling for demons
        and a haunt for every impure spirit,
            a haunt for every unclean bird,
            a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.

        Footnotes:

        a. Revelation 18:2 Isaiah 21:9


These are not self-imposed customs, whereas the hand-blessing ritual, that the Pharisees would do, is (and they would consider the food defiled if you didn't previously partake of their hand-blessing ritual, despite it being a clean animal [or acceptable plant] on the plate).

I also provided, in the Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored topic, scientific validation for Jesus still identifying unclean animals as unclean. There are very practical reasons for why that is. A similar thing is happening with how people fail to distinguish between the self-imposed days vs the days commanded by God, as you'll see if you read the aforementioned topic.


I read the parts of that topic where you talk about how we are not supposed to eat unclean animals... However, I'm confused. Where did you learn this from? My Bible says something quite different:

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I even went and checked the Greek here (Textus Receptus) and here... All Greek texts use that same word - κτίσμα.. Meaning creature or created things. It's saying all created things are good and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving...

cristobela
CherieBunnie
I agree that anything violent that happens to a nation could be considered judgement... But the ISIS stuff totally confuses me. Because there are so many people talking about how the US funded ISIS, or that ISIS is totally made up, and all of that talk.. I feel like I don't know what's true and what's not anymore. Granted, even so, Israel will face judgement regardless of what they tell us in the news. I believe America is soon to start facing some sort of judgement as well. We've gone untouched for a very long time.


Concerning what's true, or not, about ISIS:


I mean some people are literally saying that ISIS doesn't even exist. That it's all staged and whatever country is actually behind ISIS is using the lie about a fake terrorist group as some sort of a tactic to gain control in the middle east.

cristobela
Though humans have been known to conspire,

      • Psalm 83:3-8 (NIV)

        3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
            they plot against those you cherish.
        4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
            so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”
        5 With one mind they plot together;
            they form an alliance against you—
        6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
            of Moab and the Hagrites,
        7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
            Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
        8 Even Assyria has joined them
            to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[a]

        Footnotes:

        a. Psalm 83:8 The Hebrew has Selah (a word of uncertain meaning) here.


...and the above does include Ishmaelites, which Muslims identify themselves as, still, ultimately, God is allowing ISIS to happen for a reason. He allows people to rise to power and overthrow others, especially when the one to be overthrown is in sin (as I covered in "The Divine Judgments from God" topic, e.g. both Edom and Libnah rising against Israel in revolt during Jehoram's reign, a king who walked in idolatry / forsook YHWH).

Even when people conspire and plot to assassinate other people, God is in control.

      • Isaiah 8:12-13 (NIV)

        12 “Do not call conspiracy
            everything this people calls a conspiracy;
        do not fear what they fear,
            and do not dread it.
        13 The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
            he is the one you are to fear,
            he is the one you are to dread.

      • 1 Kings 15:28-30 (NIV)

        28 Baasha killed Nadab in the third year of Asa king of Judah and succeeded him as king.

        29 As soon as he began to reign, he killed Jeroboam’s whole family. He did not leave Jeroboam anyone that breathed, but destroyed them all, according to the word of the Lord given through his servant Ahijah the Shilonite. 30 This happened because of the sins Jeroboam had committed and had caused Israel to commit, and because he aroused the anger of the Lord, the God of Israel.


Clearly, Baasha conspired to assassinate Jeroboam's whole family. Conspiracy to kill and government takeover. But it was from God because of Jeroboam's sin.

And actually, some of the nations who became enemies of Israel after Solomon's reign, had previously been militarily equipped by Solomon himself (while they were on peaceful terms / not-an-obvious-threat).

      • 1 Kings 10:28-29 (NIV)

        28 Solomon’s horses were imported from Egypt and from Kue[a]—the royal merchants purchased them from Kue at the current price. 29 They imported a chariot from Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and a horse for a hundred and fifty.[b] They also exported them to all the kings of the Hittites and of the Arameans.

        Footnotes:

        1 Kings 10:28 Probably Cilicia
        1 Kings 10:29 That is, about 3 3/4 pounds or about 1.7 kilograms

      • 2 Kings 6:8 (NIV)

        8 Now the king of Aram was at war with Israel. After conferring with his officers, he said, “I will set up my camp in such and such a place.”


But had they been walking righteously, this wouldn't have been a problem.

      • Proverbs 16:7 (NIV)

        7 When the Lord takes pleasure in anyone’s way,
            he causes their enemies to make peace with them.


Repentance / turning away from wicked ways is the only safety. Then we wouldn't have to worry about conspiracies, or about people we formerly equipped with weapons, attacking us. God would be our protection. He controls the hearts of men and inspires them to wage war or not.

      • Isaiah 13:17 (NIV)

        17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
            who do not care for silver
            and have no delight in gold.

      • 2 Chronicles 17:10 (NIV)

        10 The fear of the Lord fell on all the kingdoms of the lands surrounding Judah, so that they did not go to war against Jehoshaphat.



Agreed. My mom explained that to me. How God uses other people/nations to punish even His children for their sins. I was just saying, whether ISIS is real or not, or whether they tell us the truth in the news, God is using someone over there to punish Israel.

cristobela
The USA is already brushing up with God's judgment(s) if you ask me:



And that's just of the ones I've noticed.

Those who call on His Name in this country need to turn from their wicked ways and pray that God has mercy on this nation, that people come to saving faith in Him and His Word, so we can live in peace and quiet, in all godliness and holiness, and so be safe. He will relent from all these judgments if they / we repent.

edit: and we also need to make disciples of course


But even if those of us who are Christian do repent, what of all the people in this nation that aren't Christian and aren't meant to be saved? If America is Babylon, and I believe it's the only country that has ever been capable of fitting the biblical description thus far... It's meant to be destroyed (Jeremiah 50, 51 and other parts of the Bible, NT & OT), but those of us who are saved will leave before that happens.

Jeremiah 50:3 For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast.

We know this isn't old Babylon, because people still dwelled there when old Babylon was taken by the Medes.

Jeremiah 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.

Arrows of a mighty expert man from an assembly of nations from the north country, that destroy Babylon so that none shall dwell therein after. Given recent world events, it really seems like the stage is being set for this.

Jeremiah 51:45-48 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD. And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shall both come one year, and after that in another year shall come a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler. Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her. Then the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD.

But I do agree, it does seem like we're already suffering for this. Not just with what you mentioned... But people are sick left and right, too. Physically and mentally. There are so many people with health problems. I mean, we can blame it on gmos, pesticides, chemtrails, vaccines... But ultimately, it could be seen as punishment for sins and the way this country has become so wicked in so many ways.



cristobela
CherieBunnie
If they're not allowed in Jerusalem, where are they predominantly living? I know I see a lot of false doctrines in churches all over the place. I feel like a lot of people who could truly be saved are just being deceived right now. But the Bible says when the wolf comes, the hireling will flee. I think that's exactly what is going to have to happen before many of these people open their eyes. Tribulation will come, their false shepherds are going to flee, and they're going to have to turn from these lies to rely on Christ alone to guide them.

John 10:11-13 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.


They're spread out all over the place. Just look at this map from the IAMCS (International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues): http://iamcs.org/congregations

And that's just one organization, with a map that is just focusing on the Americas. Who knows where else they are worldwide. Well, God knows. 3nodding

edit: also, if you click the map, it opens up the world map sweatdrop but I'm sure there are more than that worldwide.


So they're basically spread all over just like us 3nodding Makes sense.  
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:05 am
CherieBunnie
cristobela
edited
CherieBunnie
I think I understood that some Jews in the time of Jesus who believed in Him still held to some of the traditional Israelite practices, the carnal ordinances. Touch not, taste not, handle not. And the sabbath and other holy days. But yeah, the Bible specifically says those things aren't necessary.


I wouldn't equate Purim and Hanukkah, and other self-imposed customs [like not eating if they didn't do a hand-blessing ritual first] to the Holy days and dietary distinctions commanded by God Himself. This is actually a very commonly overlooked distinction that I covered in the Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored topic.

Just to give you a very small taste, Jesus is still identifying unclean animals as unclean all the way in the Book of Revelation, in agreement with the prophet Isaiah (and thus in agreement with our Heavenly Father's Law).

      • Revelation 18:2 (NIV)

        2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

        “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’[a]
            She has become a dwelling for demons
        and a haunt for every impure spirit,
            a haunt for every unclean bird,
            a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.

        Footnotes:

        a. Revelation 18:2 Isaiah 21:9


These are not self-imposed customs, whereas the hand-blessing ritual, that the Pharisees would do, is (and they would consider the food defiled if you didn't previously partake of their hand-blessing ritual, despite it being a clean animal [or acceptable plant] on the plate).

I also provided, in the Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored topic, scientific validation for Jesus still identifying unclean animals as unclean. There are very practical reasons for why that is. A similar thing is happening with how people fail to distinguish between the self-imposed days vs the days commanded by God, as you'll see if you read the aforementioned topic.


I read the parts of that topic where you talk about how we are not supposed to eat unclean animals... However, I'm confused. Where did you learn this from? My Bible says something quite different:

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I even went and checked the Greek here (Textus Receptus) and here... All Greek texts use that same word - κτίσμα.. Meaning creature or created things. It's saying all created things are good and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving...


I highlighted the ignored details of these very verses in the topic, on page 3. People ignore the following details: they don't define "truth" Biblically and ignore "sancitified by the word". I used the NIV in the thread, but the same still applies.

Quote:

User Image

              (≈ 6 minutes to read | 5 ignored details)



First, believers have a tendency to not define words by their use in previous chapters and books, but we must do this prior to reading this epistle (Paul is an ex-Pharisee who knows his Old Testament terminology very well):

✘ Ignored detail #1: What is truth?


      • Psalm 119:43 (NIV)

        43 Never take your word of truth from my mouth,
        for I have put my hope in your laws.


      • John 17:17 (NIV)

        17 Sanctify them by[a] the truth; your word is truth.


        Footnotes:

        a. John 17:17 Or them to live in accordance with


Now for the passage, and the ignored verses in said passage:

      • 1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NIV)

        4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.



✘ Ignored detail #2: notice it's not just prayer, but consecrated by the Word of God too.

      Things such as pork, rats, cockroaches, vultures, ants, etc... we can't just pray over such creatures, and think it's all of a sudden “clean” and now food. The Word of God has to consecrate it.



✘ Ignored detail #3: What does the word “consecrate” even mean?

To show a couple examples of how it gets used elsewhere:

      • Exodus 13:2 (NIV)

        2 “Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal.”

      • Exodus 29:1 (NIV)

        29 “This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: Take a young bull and two rams without defect.


The term carries this meaning of being set-apart from the rest and dedicated to a particular task; being unlike the others in existence/in the community.

The Hebrew word is "qodesh" (in Exodus 29:1) / "qadash" (in Exodus 13:2) and Strong's Concordance gives the terms these definitions:

H#6944 (qodesh): apartness
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6944.htm

H#6942 (qadash): to be set-apart
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6942.htm

So, what consecrating (setting-apart) certain creations as “food” means: that certain created things were set-apart by God to be considered eatable, unlike the rest who aren't.


✘ Ignored detail #4: Where does the Word of God consecrate (set-apart) what is food for us humans? In God's Law (the Truth, His words): Genesis 1:29, Leviticus 7:23, Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14:1-21. Consecrated: clean animals, seed-bearing plants, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. Set-apart (consecrated) from unclean animals, from green plants, from plants that _don't_ bear seed, from the fat of animals, from blood. Those who know the Truth, God's Laws, won't fall for the doctrines of demons when people start prohibiting what He allowed (i.e. beliefs that say, “abstain from beef and chicken on a certain Friday or else you let God down or you're less holy to God, you're not doing your Christian duty, you're not being pious”, or “abstain from all meat; that is the godly thing nowadays”, they're both over-limiting what God actually consecrated / set-apart for us to eat—contrary to what you find in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc...) Leviticus 11 and Dt 14:1-21 are quite long, and talk about animals, but I'll quote two of the shorter criteria found elsewhere in the bible where He is establishing what food (for man) is:


        Man-kind's Food VS. Animal-kind's Food

      • Genesis 1:29-30 (NIV)

        29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.


        Do Not Eat the Fat

      • Leviticus 7:23-24 (NIV)

        23 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats. 24 The fat of an animal found dead or torn by wild animals may be used for any other purpose, but you must not eat it.


The Commands against eating animals found dead or torn by wild animals, and the eating of blood I already quoted (in previous sections), but they can be found in Leviticus 17. Again for the animals that are set-apart please read Leviticus 11 / Deuteronomy 14:1-21.


✘ Ignored detail #5: the phrase “unclean food” is not scriptural.

You will never find, in the Hebrew, the phrase “unclean food”. That's a traditional phrase we've made up (out of ignorance of what “food” literally is in the bible); “unclean food” was never the terminology of scripture. Scripture says “unclean animals”; and why this distinction is important will become abundantly clear as I continue.

The phrase “unclean food” can be found either as:

(1) a title of certain chapters (man-made titles), not a phrase found in the body of the text itself; this happens with chapters like Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. Translations like the NIV, NKJV, and MEV use such titles for these chapters.

Or

(2) other than man-made titles, the phrase “unclean food” appears once (and only exists in the modern English translations, not in the older English); that single appearance in modern translations is found in Hosea 9:3.

For instance, the NIV reads:

      • Hosea 9:3 (NIV)

        3 They will not remain in the Lord’s land;
            Ephraim will return to Egypt
            and eat unclean food in Assyria.


But when you look at the Hebrew of that verse, the word “food” appears nowhere.
Link: http://biblehub.com/text/hosea/9-3.htm

At most, it says “unclean” (and “things” is implied) but “food” is not there in the Hebrew. The older translations that we have in the public domain (KJV, DARBY, DRA, YLT), render it correctly; I'll quote the KJV for example:

      • Hosea 9:3 (KJV)

        3 They shall not dwell in the Lord's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.


To see all four versions side-by-side: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hos9:3&version=KJV;DARBY;DRA;YLT

This is why exposing the non-existence of this word is such a big deal: because by the time we get to Mark 7, Jesus saying...

/End Quote

Spoiler, when Jesus declares all food clean, he's not declaring all animals clean, thus why He continues to identify certain animals as unclean in the Book of Revelation. The truth (the laws of God / the word of God) still identifies those animals as unclean, not meant to be eaten. But there will come a time when people will try to outlaw the eating of clean animals too (such as the veganism movement).

On page three of that topic, I addressed the commonly appealed to chapters (Acts 10, 1 Timothy 4, Mark 7 and Romans 14) and the details, like the ones above, that people gloss over or are unaware of, thus they miss what was actually being said in the chapter. Scripture doesn't contradict. It's a cohesive thought from Genesis to Revelation (the last two examples on that page being just that: an example from Genesis and an example from Revelation, the latter of which I already quoted to you). As long as those animals continue to do unclean things (eat blood, rotting matter, etc, or eat an animal who does—things even Gentiles in the Book of Acts were prohibited from eating in the New Testament), then they will continue to be unclean. Blood and rotting corpses aren't all of a sudden food, nor the animals who feast on them (i.e. dogs, vulture, pigs, rats, etc). Again, read the topic in its entirety for all the ignored details.



CherieBunnie
cristobela
The USA is already brushing up with God's judgment(s) if you ask me:



And that's just of the ones I've noticed.

Those who call on His Name in this country need to turn from their wicked ways and pray that God has mercy on this nation, that people come to saving faith in Him and His Word, so we can live in peace and quiet, in all godliness and holiness, and so be safe. He will relent from all these judgments if they / we repent.

edit: and we also need to make disciples of course


But even if those of us who are Christian do repent, what of all the people in this nation that aren't Christian and aren't meant to be saved? If America is Babylon, and I believe it's the only country that has ever been capable of fitting the biblical description thus far... It's meant to be destroyed (Jeremiah 50, 51 and other parts of the Bible, NT & OT), but those of us who are saved will leave before that happens.

Jeremiah 50:3 For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast.

We know this isn't old Babylon, because people still dwelled there when old Babylon was taken by the Medes.


I disagree right here. The prophecy does refer to the literal Babylon of the Middle East because it is desolate now, no one dwells there.

        Babylon is the most famous city from ancient Mesopotamia whose ruins lie in modern-day Iraq 59 miles (94 kilometres) southwest of Baghdad.

        http://www.ancient.eu/babylon/


Jeremiah 50 even begins by telling you the land YHWH is referring to.

      • Jeremiah 50:1 (NIV)


        50 This is the word the Lord spoke through Jeremiah the prophet concerning Babylon and the land of the Babylonians[a]:

        Footnotes:

        a. Jeremiah 50:1 Or Chaldeans; also in verses 8, 25, 35 and 45


I don't doubt that Babylon is being spiritualized in the Book of Revelation. But Jeremiah 50 is talking about literal Babylon.

As for those who stay unrepentant (believer and unbeliever alike), they will feel the effects of God's plagues. But not those who are faithful / loyal.

      • Revelation 9:4 (NIV)

        4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

      • Revelation 9:20-21 (NIV)

        20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

      • Revelation 2:18-25 (NIV)


        18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

        These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.

        20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

        24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’


In the Book of Revelation, the believers aren't leaving (unless they die / don't survive). For instance...

      • Revelation 6:9-11 (NIV)

        9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[a] were killed just as they had been.

        Footnotes:

        a. Revelation 6:11 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in 12:10; 19:10.


...otherwise, assuming they're alive on earth, they're being marked by the seal of God so they don't suffer from the plagues God sends. Though they could die a natural death or at the hands of persecutors.


CherieBunnie
But I do agree, it does seem like we're already suffering for this. Not just with what you mentioned... But people are sick left and right, too. Physically and mentally. There are so many people with health problems. I mean, we can blame it on gmos, pesticides, chemtrails, vaccines... But ultimately, it could be seen as punishment for sins and the way this country has become so wicked in so many ways.


I would add that the reason people are resorting to pesticides and chemtrails is because, instead of repenting and doing things God's Way (the Commands telling us how to cultivate from trees to ensure fruitfulness, giving the land a sabbath, etc), they want to resolve the judgment of withheld rain and crop failure their own way without repenting. God knew what we would resort to if we didn't do things His Way / according to His Instructions / His Commands. Death and disease / sickness would result (not just because the plants aren't growing as nutritious as they could be, but also because instead of doing things God's Way, we invent a pesticide, a poison, to place on our food, etc). Only by obeying His Commands, and turning away from our own ideas and way of doing, will health be restored to the land, to its people and animals.  

cristobela
Vice Captain


CherieBunnie

Sugary Hourglass

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:28 pm
Are you sure this isn't the Babylon of Revelation?

cristobela
In the Book of Revelation, the believers aren't leaving (unless they die / don't survive). For instance...


Are you sure they aren't leaving?

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Jeremiah 51:44-45 And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall. My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the Lord.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


Micah 4, 5 & 6 kjv speak of it, too.

Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:6-7 In that day, saith the Lord, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.


And we know this is prophecy of the end of times, because this is again repeated in Isaiah 2 followed by prophesy of the day of the wrath of the Lord in the very same chapter:

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:11-12 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


This is the same great day of the Lord that is spoken of throughout the entire OT, which is the same day that Christ described in Matthew 24: (under the spoiler):

Zeph 1:14-17 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Isaiah 13:9-10 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Joel 3:14-17 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Mattew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:




But continuing on, it explains that we will be delivered from Babylon and gathered together..

Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Isaiah 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.



Isaiah 31-35 kjv, too. All of these are end times prophecies.

Isaiah 31:4 For thus hath the Lord spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.



It speaks of the Lord of Hosts coming down to fight for Mount Zion. This hasn't happened yet. ^ And we see here more references to Revelation in Isaiah 34:

Isaiah 34:2-4 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


And again, mount Zion of Micah and Isaiah is spoken of in Revelation:

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.



Why is it not possible that Jeremiah is talking about the spiritual Babylon, and thus the spiritual Chaldeans? It can't possibly be old Babylon.. It says specifically, the archers let none escape. All it's men of war shall be cut off in that day. Old Babylon was just abandoned. Spiritual Babylon is utterly destroyed, with everyone remaining in it.

Jeremiah 50:29-30 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the Lord, against the Holy One of Israel. Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the Lord.

This didn't happen to old Babylon ^ And again, there are more references to Revelation in Jeremiah 51:

Jeremiah 51:6-7 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.  
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:01 am
***NOTE: this reply came at a delay because I was reading through the chapters. I'll post it in two parts because of length.

CherieBunnie
Are you sure this isn't the Babylon of Revelation?


Yes.

I'll demonstrate why below.


CherieBunnie
cristobela
In the Book of Revelation, the believers aren't leaving (unless they die / don't survive). For instance...


Are you sure they aren't leaving?

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


Let me clarify (and reemphasize) precisely what I meant when I said that: I meant the believers are not leaving the planet to avoid plagues; the faithful believers are being marked by the seal of God on their foreheads i.e. Revelation 9, so we don't feel the effects of the plagues which God sends against the unrepentant. The angels, whom God sends to attack, won't attack us, just the unrepentant—there's no need to mark people if they're all in Jerusalem, and everyone in Jerusalem is being spared attack. He would've just said attack every nation but Israel. But that's not the case. People need to be marked when there is a mix and you need to tell who from who. Regardless of what nation we are in, or what nation the unrepentant are in, even if the repentant and unrepentant are in the same country (and they will be), those who have the seal of God on their foreheads won't be attacked by the angels of God / the angels Jesus sends, only the unrepentant will be attacked. Biblically, that is the pattern:

The identical thing happens in Ezekiel 9 (albeit, in Ezekiel 9, the judgment is against Jerusalem alone, in Revelation 9 more nations are involved).

      • Ezekiel 9:1-11 (NIV)

        9 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, “Bring near those who are appointed to execute judgment on the city, each with a weapon in his hand.” 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

        3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”

        5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple.

        7 Then he said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!” So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?”

        9 He answered me, “The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see.’ 10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done.”

        11 Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, “I have done as you commanded.”


The concept of, “those loving righteousness and hating evil receiving God's seal on their foreheads”, and everyone else in the city suffering demise, is also a concept demonstrated in Ezekiel 14.

      • Ezekiel 14:12-20 (NIV)

        12 The word of the Lord came to me: 13 “Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its people and their animals, 14 even if these three men—Noah, Daniel[a] and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign Lord.

        15 “Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, 16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.

        17 “Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, ‘Let the sword pass throughout the land,’ and I kill its people and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.

        19 “Or if I send a plague into that land and pour out my wrath on it through bloodshed, killing its people and their animals, 20 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save neither son nor daughter. They would save only themselves by their righteousness.

        Footnotes:

        a. Ezekiel 14:14 Or Danel, a man of renown in ancient literature; also in verse 20

Those who are faithful to God and to His instructions don't feel the affects of the plague. They are spared. Even while staying in the very land that is getting attacked.

That said, coming out of Babylon, in a spiritual sense, means to stop participating of the world's sins, their lawless way of being, including their idolatry and unclean ways. Similar to what's expressed in Corinthians, when separating from idolatry / lies, and all uncleanness, to follow after God obediently:

      • 2 Corinthians 6:16-18 (NIV)

        16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

        “I will live with them
            and walk among them,
        and I will be their God,
            and they will be my people.”[a]

        17 Therefore,

        Come out from them
            and be separate,
                says the Lord.
        Touch no unclean thing,
            and I will receive you.”[b]

        18 And,

        “I will be a Father to you,
            and you will be my sons and daughters,
                says the Lord Almighty.”[c]

        Footnotes:

        a. 2 Corinthians 6:16 Lev. 26:12; Jer. 32:38; Ezek. 37:27
        b. 2 Corinthians 6:17 Isaiah 52:11; Ezek. 20:34,41
        c. 2 Corinthians 6:18 2 Samuel 7:14; 7:8


Otherwise, we will suffer the affects of the plagues that He sends, alongside with the idolators (those who don't follow the truth, but follow after false notions of God, in distrust of the Living God and what He revealed). We're not physically going anywhere to escape His plagues (just like the the Israelites in Egypt stayed in Egypt through all ten plagues, but were unaffected, protected, if they trusted what He said and complied with His instructions. Just like Ezekiel survived the attack when everyone else around him in the city of Jerusalem was dying at the hands of God's judgment).

That said, notice: the Corinthian church is not living in the United States of America (which you are identifying as the Spiritual Babylon; a notion I disagree with, and I'll demonstrate why later) nor is the Corinthian Church living in the Babylon prophesied by Isaiah, Micah, and Jeremiah. They lived in Corinth, a city in Corinthia, Peloponnese, Greece. But the Corinthian Church too are being told to “come out”. Is he telling them to leave Corinth? Or to go live in Jerusalem? No. He's telling them to come out of the world's way of doing things, from their false beliefs/idols and uncleannesses, from sin, and instead, do things God's Way, in accordance with His Commands, to avoid coming under His wrath. A specific geographic location is not the safety. Turning away from what YHWH identifies as sin is the safety—regardless of where you live.

      • Acts 10:34-35 (NIV)

        34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.


As Ezekiel 9 demonstrates, even if you're in Jerusalem, if you're in idolatry, committing injustice, blasphemy, etc, then you're toast too. He will have you killed, not protected. The physical plot of land known as Israel is not the protection. If we cherish idolatry [or insert any other sin here] in our hearts we will be attacked by God.

      • Psalm 44:20-21 (NIV)

        20 If we had forgotten the name of our God
            or spread out our hands to a foreign god,
        21 would not God have discovered it,
            since he knows the secrets of the heart?

      • Genesis 6:5-7 (NIV)

        5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”


CherieBunnie
Jeremiah 51:44-45 And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall. My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the Lord.


This is talking about shaming Bel, an idol, exposing its uselessness by attacking it, making people stop their worship of the idol by sending plagues on those who worship the idol, and telling the Israelites to avoid the idol worship to avoid coming under His wrath.

Also, there would be no need for them to stay there in Babylon after YHWH liberated them from the Babylonian captivity (which Jeremiah had prophesied would only last 70 years i.e. Jeremiah 25:11). YHWH exiled the Israelites to Babylon for their idolatry (which happened approximately 605 BC to 537 BC [source]). But then, after their punishment, they were to be rescued, by God, from the exile. YHWH turned back the captivity by stirring up the heart of King Cyrus to send the Israelites back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple.

So, they are leaving Babylon because they're no longer under punishment (and are suppose to be leaving); thus the physical going out from the midst of her. And this happened upon the completion of the 70 years prophesied by Jeremiah (also after they had repented, turned back to God, away from their idolatry—which is what we find Daniel doing upon realizing what Jeremiah's prophecy meant [i.e. Daniel 9]).

It was Babylon's turn to feel God's wrath. Israel's punishment is over, Babylon's punishment begins.

In the same vein as,

      • Romans 2:9 (NIV)

        9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

      • 1 Peter 4:17 (NIV)

        17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


God's set-apart believers get punished first, then the rest.

Of course, when talking about the Old Testament, these concepts were demonstrated physically, with geographical locations, on a large scale. But the truth is that the attacks come to the individual in sin wherever they are (whether you're in Jerusalem or any other city on earth), just like the protection comes to the obedient individuals wherever they are.

And the Israelites didn't leave the planet (that was my initial point).

"Bringing out of the mouth" of something is often used when rescuing something or someone from literal wild beasts [ferocious animals] and/or figurative wild beasts: oppressors (ferocious people in authority who take advantage of others, treating them ruthlessly/mercilessly/with no care, benefitting economically at their pain/demise). The Israelites suffered oppression during the exile, as part of their punishment; thus, once their punishment is over, they are being delivered from their oppressor who mistreated them while in exile. But not every case of being rescued from someone's mouth is about a physical departure from a country into another one.

      • Psalm 22:12-13, 20-21 (NIV)

        12 Many bulls surround me;
            strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
        13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
            open their mouths wide against me.
                […]
        20 Deliver me from the sword,
            my precious life from the power of the dogs.
        21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
            save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

      • Ezekiel 34:10 (NIV)

        10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

      • Amos 3:12 (NIV)

        12 This is what the Lord says:

        As a shepherd rescues from the lion’s mouth
            only two leg bones or a piece of an ear,
        so will the Israelites living in Samaria be rescued,
            with only the head of a bed
            and a piece of fabric[a] from a couch.[b]”

        Footnotes:

        a. Amos 3:12 The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.
        b. Amos 3:12 Or Israelites be rescued, / those who sit in Samaria / on the edge of their beds / and in Damascus on their couches.


They were released from the oppressor's oppression over them. In the case of the shepherds (spiritual guides, pastors) over the flock, if a pastor/shepherd is not doing his job, then you leave his congregation and stop following him when YHWH gives you proper discernment to know the shepherd is leading you wrong. But in all of the above examples, the one attacking and devouring is ruthless, merciless, uncaring, only looking to benefit themselves at our expense and hurt. They're not truly seeking to build us up, in truth, protection, securing our well-being, but feeding off of us (economic-benefit / self-benefit), even if they must lead us into detriment or leave us in detriment to do so. They're ferocious, uncaring creatures. Not interested in true care.



CherieBunnie
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


Continuing the above Old Testament concept of being rescued from someone's mouth...this is just like in the Psalms.

      • Psalm 144:11 (NIV)

        11 deliver me;
            rescue me from the hands of foreigners
        whose mouths are full of lies,
            whose right hands are deceitful.


...just like Bel, an idol, who is a lie (false notion of God), the dragon, the beast, and false prophet, speak lies and deceive people into following something/someone who is not really YHWH/the Creator. They're preying on us, and God delivers us from their mouth of lies. They speak unclean things and do unclean things. We're told to not be like them, nor have fellowship with them—but separate from their uncleanness. Those who believe the truth would not follow after them, but would separate from them and from their ways, submitting to God's Scriptural truth.

I'm going to go out of order in the following because failure to recognize this concept is what led you to make the other statement.


CherieBunnie
This is the same great day of the Lord that is spoken of throughout the entire OT, which is the same day that Christ described in Matthew 24: (under the spoiler):

Zeph 1:14-17 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Isaiah 13:9-10 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Joel 3:14-17 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Mattew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


Not an accurate statement to make. Here's the thing about the phrase, "the day of the Lord" in the Old Testament: it's used when God stops waiting for a nation to repent and starts punishing a nation—whether it's a prophecy against Babylon, or against Egypt, or against Ethiopia or whomever. Of course it will be used of the end times too, but it's not solely used of that day.

For example, Egypt's "day of the Lord" / day of wrath came through the hands of Babylon (so it's not always in reference to “end times spiritual Babylon” getting destroyed; because in this case, "the day of the Lord" came through Babylon to punish others and is not herself being destroyed). e.g. Ezekiel 30.

      • Ezekiel 30:1-12 (NIV)

        30 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

        “‘Wail and say,
            “Alas for that day!”
        3 For the day is near,
            the day of the Lord is near
        a day of clouds,
            a time of doom for the nations
        .
        4 A sword will come against Egypt,
            and anguish will come upon Cush.[a]
        When the slain fall in Egypt,
            her wealth will be carried away
            and her foundations torn down.

        5 Cush and Libya, Lydia and all Arabia, Kub and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt.

        6 “‘This is what the Lord says:

        “‘The allies of Egypt will fall
            and her proud strength will fail.
        From Migdol to Aswan
            they will fall by the sword within her,
                declares the Sovereign Lord.
        7 “‘They will be desolate
            among desolate lands,
        and their cities will lie
            among ruined cities.
        8 Then they will know that I am the Lord,
            when I set fire to Egypt
            and all her helpers are crushed.

        9 “‘On that day messengers will go out from me in ships to frighten Cush out of her complacency. Anguish will take hold of them on the day of Egypt’s doom, for it is sure to come.

        10 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

        “‘I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt
            by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.

        11 He and his army—the most ruthless of nations—
            will be brought in to destroy the land.
        They will draw their swords against Egypt
            and fill the land with the slain.
        12 I will dry up the waters of the Nile
            and sell the land to an evil nation;
            by the hand of foreigners
            I will lay waste the land and everything in it.

        I the Lord have spoken.

        Footnotes:

        a. Ezekiel 30:4 That is, the upper Nile region; also in verses 5 and 9


This same kind of "YHWH sending an army as 'day of the Lord' judgment on a nation” is what happens in Isaiah 13, but this time against Babylon herself (clearly, a different day, and a different attack than Egypt's “day of the Lord”, because it's not Babylon doing the attack but it's Babylon receiving it; yet both events are still referred to as suffering the “day of the Lord”). Opening up Isaiah 13 (emphasis on the bolded parts):

      • Isaiah 13 (NIV)

        13 A prophecy against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:

        2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
            shout to them;
        beckon to them
            to enter the gates of the nobles.
        3 I have commanded those I prepared for battle;
            I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath
            those who rejoice in my triumph.

        4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
            like that of a great multitude!
        Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
            like nations massing together!
        The Lord Almighty is mustering
            an army for war.
        5 They come from faraway lands,
            from the ends of the heavens—
        the Lord and the weapons of his wrath
            to destroy the whole country.

        6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;
            it will come like destruction from the Almighty.[a]
        7 Because of this, all hands will go limp,
            every heart will melt with fear.
        8 Terror will seize them,
            pain and anguish will grip them;
            they will writhe like a woman in labor.
        They will look aghast at each other,
            their faces aflame.

        9 See, the day of the Lord is coming
            —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger
        to make the land desolate
            and destroy the sinners within it.
        10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
            will not show their light.
        The rising sun will be darkened
            and the moon will not give its light.
        11 I will punish the world for its evil,
            the wicked for their sins.
        I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
            and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
        12 I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
            more rare than the gold of Ophir.
        13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
            and the earth will shake from its place
        at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
            in the day of his burning anger.

        14 Like a hunted gazelle,
            like sheep without a shepherd,
        they will all return to their own people,
            they will flee to their native land.
        15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
            all who are caught will fall by the sword.
        16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
            their houses will be looted and their wives violated.

        17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
            who do not care for silver
            and have no delight in gold.
        18 Their bows will strike down the young men;
            they will have no mercy on infants,
            nor will they look with compassion on children.
        19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
            the pride and glory of the Babylonians,[b]
        will be overthrown by God
            like Sodom and Gomorrah.
        20 She will never be inhabited
            or lived in through all generations;
        there no nomads will pitch their tents,
            there no shepherds will rest their flocks.
        21 But desert creatures will lie there,
            jackals will fill her houses;
        there the owls will dwell,
            and there the wild goats will leap about.
        22 Hyenas will inhabit her strongholds,
            jackals her luxurious palaces.
        Her time is at hand,
            and her days will not be prolonged.

        Footnotes:

        a. Isaiah 13:6 Hebrew Shaddai
        b. Isaiah 13:19 Or Chaldeans


Babylon today is like Sodom and Gomorrah, empty, not inhabited. They had their "day of the Lord". Just like Sodom and Gomorrah had their "day of the Lord". Different event, different day, but still "the day of the Lord". As further evidence that not every mention of "the day of the Lord" is the same: Egypt was not desolated the way they were (to never be inhabited again; that was never the threat against Egypt). And yet all these instances of God's wrath are called "the day of the Lord", despite being different days, different attacks, and different people affected. “The day of the Lord” is a phrase for the moment God starts punishing someone after a long wait (waiting for them to repent from their wicked ways).

The prophets in particular tend to use "dark cloud" imagery to depict the doom and gloom. They're not all necessarily describing the same event and same day though. It's the language describing God's wrath and judgment against someone.

For example, a couple of prophecies against Egypt:

      • Ezekiel 30:18 (NIV)

        18 Dark will be the day at Tahpanhes
            when I break the yoke of Egypt;
            there her proud strength will come to an end.
        She will be covered with clouds,
            and her villages will go into captivity.

      • Ezekiel 32:2, 7 (NIV)

        2 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him:

        “‘You are like a lion among the nations;
            you are like a monster in the seas
        thrashing about in your streams,
            churning the water with your feet
            and muddying the streams.

        […]

        7 When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens
            and darken their stars;
        I will cover the sun with a cloud,
                and the moon will not give its light
        .


...a prophecy against Israel:

      • Amos 8:1-2, 9-11 (NIV)

        8 This is what the Sovereign Lord showed me: a basket of ripe fruit. 2 “What do you see, Amos?” he asked.

        “A basket of ripe fruit,” I answered.

        Then the Lord said to me, “The time is ripe for my people Israel; I will spare them no longer.

        […]

        9 “In that day,” declares the Sovereign Lord,

        I will make the sun go down at noon
            and darken the earth in broad daylight.
        10 I will turn your religious festivals into mourning
            and all your singing into weeping.
        I will make all of you wear sackcloth
            and shave your heads.
        I will make that time like mourning for an only son
            and the end of it like a bitter day.
        11 “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign Lord,
            “when I will send a famine through the land—
        not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
            but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord.


You have to pay attention to these details in the chapters to realize how the phrases "day of the Lord", "sun, moon, stars not giving their light" gets applied to various different events in Scripture, not just to end times.

Now, to address this:


CherieBunnie
Micah 4, 5 & 6 kjv speak of it, too.

Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:6-7 In that day, saith the Lord, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And we know this is prophecy of the end of times, because this is again repeated in Isaiah 2 followed by prophesy of the day of the wrath of the Lord in the very same chapter:

Isaiah 2:2-3 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:11-12 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


We know certain verses in Micah 4 prophesy about end times because it has more than the nation of Israel learning the Law of God, not because it is dependent on Isaiah 2. That said, Isaiah 2 also speaks of the end times, yes.

However the concept of God shaming idols, and exalting Himself and His truth, is timeless (documented outside of the prophet's writings in the historical ones). When God sends punishment on a nation, all their idols are shamed because their idols aren't saving anyone (they're not the true Living God—YHWH is, and He's against them and destroying their idols with the attack that He sends. Idols humiliated, shamed, defeated, people realize the worthlessness of the idols / the false belief. In contrast, YHWH is exalted because He actually does what He says, He can work for your favor or for your disaster. The revelation that comes from His nation, His temple, His believers is the real deal).

And yes, people are literally traveling to Jerusalem at end times to worship God and learn the Law. In spirit, people are looking to Jerusalem for the spiritual truth that was entrusted to them (God's Law and Prophets, the Gospels). Also, the physical building of the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem.

On a similar note, Zechariah 14:16-21 even says people from other nations—thus, other than Israel—will be obligated to come up to Jerusalem every year to observe the Feast of Tabernacles or else God will send them plague (no rain). They will come and cook their sacrifices in the pots of Jerusalem.

But I don't see what this has to do with "come out of her my people"?

Unless, when you said, "we are leaving", you meant every believer moving to Jerusalem and/or taking temporary refuge in Israel during the great tribulation or during the Lamb's wrath? As opposed to leaving the planet as I initially thought you were saying?

I've already been demonstrating that they're not leaving the earth, but as far as, "everyone, leave your gentile country and go live in Jerusalem during the great tribulation or during the Lamb's wrath to avoid the plagues", no to that too. You're placing these “gathering” prophecies way too early. Emphasis on the bolded parts in the following:

      • Matthew 24:22-31 (NIV)

        22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

        26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

        29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

        “‘the sun will be darkened,
        and the moon will not give its light;
        the stars will fall from the sky,
        and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[a]

        30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[b] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[c] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

        Footnotes:

        a. Matthew 24:29 Isaiah 13:10; 34:4
        b. Matthew 24:30 Or the tribes of the land
        c. Matthew 24:30 See Daniel 7:13-14.


After the tribulation, Jesus comes and gathers His believers, not just from one nation, but from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. So there isn't one particular nation that we have to flee to during the great tribulation. We're scattered throughout the earth. He does not find us all gathered in one nation upon His return.

Even if we use the Lamb's wrath against sinners, as our barometer to keep the time-line of events, same thing: in Revelation 18, Spiritual Babylon, the city, is defeated and burned down by God's judgments; in Revelation 19, the heavens open up, v. 11-21, Christ returns, the beast and false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire; in Revelation 20, the first resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place v. 4-6 and they reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years.

Revelation 18 - Babylon defeated by God's judgments.
Revelation 19 – the heavens open up, Christ returns. Beast and false prophet defeated.
Revelation 20 - Dead in Christ come back to life.

So, it's not until after all the plagues, the defeat of Spiritual Babylon, Christ's return, and the defeat of the beast and the false prophet (ergo, not until after the wrath of the Lamb, after He has unleashed all plagues on Babylon), that we see the dead in Christ coming back to life from the dead (Revelation 20). When the dead in Christ raise back to life, that is when all the believers are gathered to Him. Considering the heavens opening up to reveal Jesus in Revelation 19:11-21, followed by the resurrection of the dead in Christ in Revelation 20, then that's when His angels gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to other (ergo, the believers are not all in one place on earth hiding in safety while Babylon is getting defeated by plagues, nor after Babylon is defeated; it's at Jesus' return that the angels are physically gathering the believers, and not just from one place, but from all over the place).

Timeline-wise, where to place the prophecies of the Gentiles flowing to Jerusalem: the most sensible is after Jesus has defeated all His enemies, judging by the context of Zechariah 14 [God attacks Jerusalem by bringing all the nations to fight her, then God attacks all the nations who came to fight Jerusalem, then, of the survivors of those nations who attacked Jerusalem, they are obligated to come up every year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles or else they get no rain). But no one is being gathered to Jerusalem as a form of safety from the plagues Babylon is defeated by at end times. The believers don't get gathered together until after Jesus' return. Prior to that we're scattered all over, from one end of the heavens to the other—and we're not getting gathered together on earth before the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which only happens in Revelation 20.


CherieBunnie
But continuing on, it explains that we will be delivered from Babylon and gathered together..

Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.


Like I demonstrated above, Jesus comes after the tribulation, and His angels gather us from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to another—after Babylon has been attacked and defeated by God's judgments (plagues). We're not all gathered in one place before then. So, if you're talking about Israel (the set-apart believers, scattered across the earth) at ends times, it's not equivalent to Micah 4, all believers coming out of one specific city, and waiting in Babylon.

What I see flowing more cohesively is that Micah starts off by prophesying about distant end times, but then starts prophesying about an event nearer to the Israelites' immediate future, shifting to the Babylonian captivity (during 605 BC to 537 BC; the Book of Micah is said to have been written during 750–700 BC [source], so, a good 100 years before it happened, but still in their future); he's prophesying that the Israelites would be delivered from the Babylonian exile. Micah describes going into captivity: they come out of the city of Zion (which is a fortress in Jerusalem i.e. 1 Chronicles 11:4-5), dwell in the open field, then go to Babylon and then have to wait there until they are delivered out of Babylon (Zion attacked, captivity in Babylon and then freed from Babylon).

Because otherwise, if being applied to end time believers, they're not all in one city nor in one country to come out of; the end time believers are being gathered from all over the place.

Even if we take the spiritual principle of "stop acting like the world, come out of her ways", even then, you have totally ignore all the other details to force fit this on end times believers: what does it mean to go out into the open field...? stop living in the city? go to the outskirts / countryside of a place? and then go back to Babylon to wait for deliverance (or go back to acting like the world)? Neither one makes sense when applied to end time believers. The prophecy says to wait in Babylon for the deliverance not come out of it. It sounds more like the Babylonian captivity that the Israelites suffered (and were delivered from) in the past, where they had to come out of Zion, be held captive in Babylon, and wait for deliverance (which came about by YHWH stirring up the heart of King Cyrus, encouraging him to send the Israelites back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple i.e. Ezra 1).


CherieBunnie
Isaiah 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.


I can see this verse and chapter describing Messianic reign, at end times, Israel restored (but not in order to escape Babylon's demise; but as a result of no longer being under God's punishment, which Isaiah 1 and 3 described—YHWH brought punishment on Jerusalem and took every blessing away because of their rebellion against the Covenant: their injustice, their murders, their bribes, their taking advantage of the fatherless and the widow, their whorish behavior / idolatries etc, (for all their sins). There's nothing here describing the notion of “flee Babylon to avoid God's attack!” On the contrary, this is the restoration after already having endured God's attack which He directly sent to Jerusalem because of their corruption.

continued in another reply
 

cristobela
Vice Captain


cristobela
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:01 am
edited on 11/6/2017 to change image hosting
[continued]


CherieBunnie
Isaiah 31-35 kjv, too. All of these are end times prophecies.


No.

Isaiah 31 – is about how to respond to the Assyrian army who came to attack Israel. And YHWH, through Isaiah, warning the southern kingdom of Judah (and Judah's king at the time i.e. Hezekiah) not to try and find help in political allies (Egypt). Trusting in political allies is not what saves, trusting in God is. This prophecy was in response to the events described in 2 Kings 19. King Hezekiah sought consultation from Isaiah in response to the Assyrian threat. And instead of relying on human protection (political allies), he prayed to God. And God sent an angel / “the angel of the Lord” because he responded with trust in Him. And the angel slayed 85,000 Assyrians in one night. The Israelites didn't even have to fight. God fought for Zion (again, Zion is a fortress in Jerusalem, which is in Judah, where King Hezekiah is reigning from).

Isaiah 32 – is also about King Hezekiah. He was a righteous king who established justice and truth in contrast to his father, King Ahaz, who did evil in the eyes of the Lord and followed idolatries/lies (compare 2 Kings 16:1-4; 2 King 18:1-8), thus the righteous king, who also has righteous rulers in his government, whom Isaiah is prophesying about in Isaiah 32. Isaiah was a prophet during Hezekiah's reign. And the outpouring of God's Spirit would bless the land.

Just so you know, God's Spirit pouring out on people is not strictly a New Testament thing.

      • Numbers 11:25-26 (NIV)

        25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again.

        26 However, two men, whose names were Eldad and Medad, had remained in the camp. They were listed among the elders, but did not go out to the tent. Yet the Spirit also rested on them, and they prophesied in the camp.


Not only would the Spirit of God overturn their dry, fruitless circumstances in Isaiah 32, but these righteous leaders in-dwelled by the Holy Spirit, would bless the community by carrying out YHWH's justice resulting in peace and quietness, undisturbed. There's no corrupt government for YHWH to send attack against / send plagues against. And if they're teaching the people righteousness, then there's no common person inviting YHWH's plagues on the community, nor any unrighteous person being allowed to stay there if they're executing capital sins / sins deserving death the way God said. People can spiritualize this, like everything else, and apply it to Jesus because the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets all speak about Him, but this was fulfilled in Hezekiah's lifetime.

Isaiah 33 – although vague, nothing suggests it's limited to end times. So, I don't now why you're making that claim. When God punishes, by returning onto a person the same treatment they treated others with, that is justice (divine justice). Ergo, the land is filled with justice/judgment when that happens. There were times of peace in Israel's past (when they had righteous leadership). When we read about peace in Israel that doesn't mean, “oh, end times because it's war-torn today”. Just read through the Book of Kings. When there was a righteous leader, it wasn't uncommon for them to have periods of peace. No one attacking their crops (human enemies plundering nor locusts devouring as God promised in His Law when they obeyed and pursued righteous living as defined by Him).

      • 2 Chronicles 14:1-2 (NIV)

        14 [a]And Abijah rested with his ancestors and was buried in the City of David. Asa his son succeeded him as king, and in his days the country was at peace for ten years. 2 Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God.

        Footnotes:

        a. 2 Chronicles 14:1 In Hebrew texts 14:1 is numbered 13:23, and 14:2-15 is numbered 14:1-14.


What you're suggesting is that no prophet living during the times of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah, ever spoke about the problems the kings faced during the reign. They had enemies. People mistreated them. But they confided in God to deal out retribution and grant them victory (assuming they were righteous). Some of the kings were evil and needed rebuke from the prophets. The threat here, in Isaiah 33, is: those doing wickedly now tremble because they know divine justice is coming; but the righteous don't worry because they haven't treated others in way they wouldn't want to be treated back by God. They're behaving correctly.

The only verse that is remotely Messianic in all this, is v. 17 “Your eyes will see the king in his beauty and view a land that stretches afar.” (NIV) / “Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.” (KJV). Could be prophesying about Jesus and the New Jerusalem (if by “very far off” it's referring to time, but if referring to distance, it could be referring to expanded territory as opposed to losing land and crops to other kings i.e. the King of Assyria who would impose taxes on Judah and take revenue), but it's a very vague expression. It could also just as much be speaking of seeing the king (Hezekiah) blessed, as opposed to seeing him in sackcloth and ashes, mourning, under stress from enemy attacks (the Assyrians threatening to attack), an enemy who, at the very beginning of this chapter, we're told is plundering, betraying and destroying. The foreign enemy will be removed.

Isaiah 34 – Perhaps you're referring to verses 1-4 because of how vague it is, and YHWH not naming which nations, but verses 5-17 were definitely fulfilled. Edom was destroyed.

Isaiah 35 – is a very vague passage with respect to giving you a timestamp for fulfillment (endtimes, during a king's reign, a few years after Isaiah wrote it, etc); but the themes of a once dry land being restored to fruitfulness and splendor is often repeated throughout Scripture when holiness is restored, people start walking right (no longer lame) understanding (seeing, no longer blind), heeding the instructions of God (hearing, no longer deaf), speaking right and using their words to praise God (no longer mute, with nothing edifying to say); obviously the wicked fools don't walk in this understanding, nor do the ruthless [lions and ravenous beasts], nor will God send such attacks on the person who walks in His Way of Holiness.


CherieBunnie
Isaiah 31:4 For thus hath the Lord spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.

It speaks of the Lord of Hosts coming down to fight for Mount Zion. This hasn't happened yet. ^ And we see here more references to Revelation in Isaiah 34:


Like I explained above, it did happen. YHWH sent “the angel of the Lord” / “the angel of YHWH” who killed 85,000 Assyrians in one night. God fought for Zion.

Just for the record, the notion of God coming down to fight for Israel is not limited to end times.

      • Deuteronomy 3:22 (NIV)

        22 Do not be afraid of them; the Lord your God himself will fight for you.”

      • Nehemiah 4:20 (NIV)

        20 Wherever you hear the sound of the trumpet, join us there. Our God will fight for us!”


Whether there is a visible manifestation or not, He does fight.

Also, I've mentioned this in passing, but I'll quote the verse right out: Mount Zion is not unique to the prophets and end times. It is a hill / fortress, captured by King David, which is located in Jerusalem.

      • 1 Chronicles 11:4-5 (NIV)

        4 David and all the Israelites marched to Jerusalem (that is, Jebus). The Jebusites who lived there 5 said to David, “You will not get in here.” Nevertheless, David captured the fortress of Zion—which is the City of David.


YHWH has fought for Jerusalem and for Mount Zion (which is in Jerusalem) in the past too, just like He will in the future. But this chapter was fulfilled in the past during Hezekiah's reign (during whose reign Isaiah was operating as prophet).

That said, Babylon is not mentioned here, in Isaiah 31, nor Isaiah 34 either. So it's irrelevant to the topic of spiritual Babylon.


CherieBunnie
Isaiah 34:2-4 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


I covered Isaiah 34 above.

And again, this is a chapter in the Book of Isaiah that is devoid of Babylon. But I agree that certain chapters in the Book/Scroll of Isaiah, and in certain cases, a few verses in a chapter, do (or if very vague, could) prophesy about end times. But you're not offering the one with respect to a spiritual Babylon, just Old Babylon. As I continue answering, and get to the relevant section, it will become apparent why.

Addressing these verses though, for the sake of establishing timeline:

Isaiah 34:2-4 and Revelation 6:14-17 fit in with the circumstances surrounding Jesus' return, whose return is after the tribulation (stars falling from the skies, kings being punished)

      • Matthew 24:29-30 (KJV)

        29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

        30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

        31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      • Revelation 19:11-21 (NIV)

        11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

        KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


        17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

        19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

        Footnotes:

        a. Revelation 19:15 Psalm 2:9


Further, when Jesus returns, that's when the dead in Christ raise from the dead; the first resurrection of the dead in Christ is described a chapter after this, not before this at any point:

      • Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)

        4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

        Footnotes:

        a. Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who


Ergo in line with,

      • 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NIV)

        16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


That's when He starts His reign on earth.

From what you've written (so far) I'm gathering that you're saying one of two things (I think it's the latter):

either:

• you don't believe that we, the believers of God, will be on earth, during the great tribulation nor during the Lamb's wrath with the seal of God on our foreheads (to avoid suffering the plagues that God sends, like the Israelites avoided in Egypt. They didn't suffer but the surrounding Egyptians did, despite both living in the same country). But instead, you believe they'll be removed from the planet before the dead in Christ resurrect from the dead (even though the first resurrection is described in Revelation 20, not before then)?

or

• You agree that they are on the earth, but that they won't be dispersed throughout the earth during this time; all living believers will be physically gathered in the nation of Israel during this time to not feel the effects of the plagues God will send on the other nations...?

I don't see Biblical evidence to support either stance if either of the two is what you're trying to make a case for. The believers are (A) clearly on earth when Christ returns with His holy angels, and (B) are not gathered until after the figurative city of Babylon has already been defeated by God's judgments, and the heavens open up, Jesus' return, defeats the beast and false prophet, after which point we will be gathered from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (and the dead in Christ will resurrect first).

I'm sure there will be faithful believers living in Jerusalem waiting for His return when He returns, but not everyone is gathered there prior to His return (thus prior to Babylon's defeat, because it's only after that the heavens open up and we literally see Jesus). What fleeing to Jerusalem to avoid plagues would entail: Babylon has not been destroyed yet, but is about to be hit by something, so go to Jerusalem to take cover. But no, if we're not dead but alive on earth, then we're sealed wherever we are on the planet, so God's obedient angels don't attack us. But we're not physically gathered together in one location until Jesus comes back to reign on earth / start His 1,000 year reign, at which point the angels gather us.


CherieBunnie
And again, mount Zion of Micah and Isaiah is spoken of in Revelation:

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Mount Zion is not specific to Micah or Isaiah or end times prophecy. But yes, Mount Zion continues to have a place in prophecy, just like it did in history. Mount Zion is a hill in Jerusalem, a hill / fortress that became the City of David. It's in Israel. I'm not surprised it gets mentioned in prophecies about end times as well. It's still a place—a relevant place.

      • 1 Chronicles 11:4-5 (NIV)

        4 David and all the Israelites marched to Jerusalem (that is, Jebus). The Jebusites who lived there 5 said to David, “You will not get in here.” Nevertheless, David captured the fortress of Zion—which is the City of David.

      • Psalm 48:2 (NIV)

        2 Beautiful in its loftiness,
            the joy of the whole earth,
        like the heights of Zaphon[a] is Mount Zion,
            the city of the Great King.

        Footnotes:

        a. Psalm 48:2 Zaphon was the most sacred mountain of the Canaanites.


Bringing up the end time prophecies about Mount Zion, in Jerusalem, when we were talking about a specific prophecy in the Book of Isaiah concerning Babylon is not helpful. You're appealing to the fact that some of Isaiah's other prophecies speak of end times, or a few verses of prophecies speak of end times so everything must be “end times”-related because of that. But that's not the case. Also, you haven't given a time-line for any of this, and as a result are jumbling prophecies together without honoring the context surrounding it, which is leading to you to make erroneous assumptions about what a chapter is about (e.g. "the day of the Lord" not always consistently referring to one thing, one event). Thus the delay in this reply. I was reading all the chapters to keep track of everything and address things properly.


CherieBunnie
Why is it not possible that Jeremiah is talking about the spiritual Babylon, and thus the spiritual Chaldeans? It can't possibly be old Babylon.. It says specifically, the archers let none escape. All it's men of war shall be cut off in that day. Old Babylon was just abandoned. Spiritual Babylon is utterly destroyed, with everyone remaining in it.

Jeremiah 50:29-30 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the Lord, against the Holy One of Israel. Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the Lord.

This didn't happen to old Babylon ^ [...]


It does not say, “the archers let none escape”, but that God instructed them to not let anyone escape. That's a significant distinction because there are other examples in Scripture where God told people to not let anyone escape, but people escaped/survived.

      • Deuteronomy 7:1-3 (NIV)

        7 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons,

        Footnotes:

        a. Deuteronomy 7:2 The Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things or persons to the Lord, often by totally destroying them; also in verse 26.

      • Joshua 17:12-13 (NIV)

        12 Yet the Manassites were not able to occupy these towns, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that region. 13 However, when the Israelites grew stronger, they subjected the Canaanites to forced labor but did not drive them out completely.


Did God not know they were going to fail? He knew. But the point was: with every fiber of your being, you better put forth the effort to attack, because I don't want a single one of them alive. They're detestable to me. “Let no one escape”. But, was that what man ended up doing? Not in the case of the Israelites. So why expect more out of some idolatrous Gentiles (the Medes) who don't even believe in YHWH in the first place? The attack and pursuit would be ferocious. However this prophecy doesn't reveal to us how it actually played out in history and how long it took for Babylon to fall. With respect to driving out the Canaanites, we have the benefit of the history being recorded in the Bible, after God gave the Command to let none escape from Canaan, the Canaanites still survived. That should serve as an example.

Secondly, what makes you say that all the men of war weren't cut off from Old Babylon during the attack by the Medes? You're talking about people abandoning Babylon, but what does that have to do with the men of war not surviving the attack from the Median army? Obviously, Babylon lost that battle. All the men of war were cut off—whether that means all killed off or, like the Canaanites, greatly reduced in number to the point that they're not in power anymore.

Third, I don't see the evidence for the claim you're making: that every individual who is physically living in the Spiritual city of Babylon will be killed off via the destruction of the city herself, none escaping.

That said, you ask, “Why is it not possible that Jeremiah is talking about the spiritual Babylon, and thus the spiritual Chaldeans?” because Jeremiah tells you who he is talking about.

      • Jeremiah 51:59-64 (NIV)

        59 This is the message Jeremiah the prophet gave to the staff officer Seraiah son of Neriah, the son of Mahseiah, when he went to Babylon with Zedekiah king of Judah in the fourth year of his reign. 60 Jeremiah had written on a scroll about all the disasters that would come upon Babylon—all that had been recorded concerning Babylon. 61 He said to Seraiah, “When you get to Babylon, see that you read all these words aloud. 62 Then say, ‘Lord, you have said you will destroy this place, so that neither people nor animals will live in it; it will be desolate forever.’ 63 When you finish reading this scroll, tie a stone to it and throw it into the Euphrates. 64 Then say, ‘So will Babylon sink to rise no more because of the disaster I will bring on her. And her people will fall.’” The words of Jeremiah end here.


The physical place where Seraiah read the message outloud is the recipient of the destruction. Old Babylon.

The sinking down of that scroll describes Old Babylon's decline.


CherieBunnie
[…] And again, there are more references to Revelation in Jeremiah 51:

Jeremiah 51:6-7 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


Just to be clear, when you say “more references to Revelation in Jeremiah 51”, what you really mean to say (not that I agree, but what you're saying) is that Jeremiah saw events that happen during the end times concerning figurative city of Babylon, events also prophesied in the vision given to John (what is the Book of Revelation). I clarify that because Jeremiah is not making references to the Book of Revelation (which wasn't even written down when he lived). More accurately, would be to say that the Book of Revelation makes references to Jeremiah 51.

That said, there is a reason why Old Babylon, who is described in Isaiah's, Jeremiah's, and Micah's prophecies, is being used as a symbol for Spiritual Babylon in the Book of Revelation. They share characteristics and function similarly.

Just as there was a literal Sodom and yet Jerusalem is figuratively called “Sodom”:

      • Genesis 10:19 (NIV)

        19 and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, as far as Lasha.

      • Revelation 11:8 (NIV)

        8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

      • Jeremiah 23:14 (NIV)

        14 And among the prophets of Jerusalem
            I have seen something horrible:
            They commit adultery and live a lie.
        They strengthen the hands of evildoers,
            so that not one of them turns from their wickedness.
        They are all like Sodom to me;
            the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.”


Can we take the specific details of how “Old” Sodom was destroyed and apply it to Jerusalem who is figuratively called Sodom? No. Jerusalem was not desolated the way Sodom was. But both were corrupt and full of sin.

Just as there was a literal Jezebel in the Old Testament (who was an Israelite, from the northern kingdom of Israel), but in the future there is some woman (church?) who calls herself a prophet, and who is figuratively called Jezebel in the Book of Revelation (both are idolatrous).

      • 1 Kings 18:19 (NIV)

        19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.”

      • Revelation 2:20 (NIV)

        20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.


Jezebel led the whole northern kingdom of Israel (ergo, led servants of God) into idolatry. So does this “woman Jezebel” in the Book of Revelation. Can the specific details of “Old” Jezebel's destruction be applied to the figurative Jezebel? No. Jezebel in the Old Testament was thrown down from a tower, where she fell to her death (a relatively quick death) and the dogs ate her so fast that there wasn't much left to bury (all that was left was her skull, feet and hands) i.e. 2 Kings 9:30-37. The Jezebel in the New Testament, in contrast, is thrown on a bed of suffering, thus lying in suffering for a while. Jezebel in the Old Testament died quickly.

Likewise, Old Babylon and Spiritual Babylon share similar traits. It's a city with great power / influence over many nations, great luxury, many economic relations / much trading / economic activity. They kill the servants of God, etc.

That doesn't mean that prophecies about “Old” Babylon, and the specific details of its destruction, are exactly how the destruction of the Spiritual Babylon will play out. Otherwise, there would be no need to give another vision that isn't about Old Babylon at all, because the details would have been the same exact thing; but the details aren't exactly the same. No one lives in Sodom today (but people live in Spiritual Sodom today). Queen Jezebel is not alive today (but Spiritual Jezebel is alive and well, rampant in the church today). No one lives in Old Babylon today (yet Spiritual Babylon is inhabited). So, who is she?

You say America (USA?), but right off the bat: the USA is a nation/country, not a city. Old Babylon was a major city in Mesopotamia. Spiritual Babylon is major city as well.

      • Revelation 14:8 (KJV)

        8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

      • Revelation 16:19 (KJV)

        19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

      • Revelation 18:10 (KJV)

        10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

      • Revelation 18:21 (KJV)

        21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


This Babylon has a much larger reach. This isn't a mere stone thrown into the Euphrates river (like Old Babylon), but a great millstone cast into the sea.

This city that is figuratively called Babylon is known to have persecuted the servants of God (so, if the fact that it's a city didn't eliminate the USA already, then this does; the USA is not known for persecuting the servants of God, but being a nation established by the servants of God):

      • Revelation 19:2 (NIV)

        2 for true and just are his judgments.
        He has condemned the great prostitute
            who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
        He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”


That said, if it were that easy to identify Spiritual Babylon there wouldn't be so much debate. Some say she is Rome (a city full of idolatries, affluence and many economic relations [Rev 18:3] and political power [Rev 17:18], killing the servants of God [Rev 19:2; e.g. the Spanish Inquisition], sits on 7 hills [Rev 17:9-10], but the 7 hills are also 7 kings, and I don't know how that applies). Similarly, Jerusalem itself fits that description as well (a city full of idolatries, affluence and many economic relations and political power over the kings of other nations, killing the servants of God [all the prophets that were sent to her and whom she killed, finally culminating in the killing of God's Son, and later persecuting those who believe in Him], also sits on 7 hills).

This was discussed in the [Roman Catholicism] topic, and my reply offering information about Jerusalem in light of what Garland provided about Rome and the Roman Catholic Church:


cristobela
For the record, I responded to Katt's reply above in a different thread: [Cherry picking (proof-texting)]

---


That said, on to something else that needs re-assessing:


Foreign Relations

Garland-Green
We are told that the Harlot is and has far reaching connection. Here are some maps showing the Vatican Relations and Israels relations.


I don't know if the maps looked different in 2014 when you posted this, but both the Vatican's and Israel's "foreign relation connections" seem pretty far-reaching:

Map comparisons in spoiler tags:



Holy See:

User Image

[source]

VS.

Israel:
User Image

[source]


One the one hand, the Holy See has diplomatic relations in all but ≈ 9 countries. Whereas, Israel has diplomatic relations in all but ≈ 21 countries. So, yes, the Vatican has more reach, but from east to west, north to south, both of those maps are full.

note: " ≈ " means approximately.

I'm not sure how godly these political alliances are—regardless of whether it's the Vatican or Jerusalem.

      • Isaiah 30:1-2 (NIV)

        30 “Woe to the obstinate children,”
            declares the Lord,
        “to those who carry out plans that are not mine,
            forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit,
            heaping sin upon sin;
        2 who go down to Egypt
            without consulting me;
        who look for help to Pharaoh’s protection,
            to Egypt’s shade for refuge.


If Israel is confiding in political alliances, without consulting YHWH about it or in place of obeying the commands for protection, then she will not benefit from it in the end, just like in the past. Same goes for the Vatican. Any nation really. Funnily enough, they both have diplomatic relations with Egypt. razz



7 Hills

Garland-Green
Jerusalem is not connected with seven Hills or seven mountains.


Jerusalem actually does sit on 7 hills (like Rome, but not limited to Rome).

Quote:
Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the old city), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

Jerusalem is not the only city in the world considered or historically believed to be built on seven hills. Others include Rome, Babylon, Moscow, Mecca, Lisbon, Tehran and Amman. More than nineteen cities in the United States also lay claim to be founded on seven hills.

source: http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/map-of-jerusalem-and-its-seven-hills.html


I bring this up, not only to be fair and accurate, but also to bring up the possibility that they're both the whore? The Catholic church does believe that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah; so they have been grafted into the body of Israel—albeit as an adulterous part of the body (and she's not alone in her adultery; many other sects/denominations are adulterous today too in certain areas, mixing in beliefs/practices of the pagans).

The people of Jerusalem today, as well, have paganism being celebrated in the streets [link] (I left a comment on that article explaining why). That is no different than the "whoring around with other lovers" present within Roman Catholicism (Hindu and Buddhist practices, bowing before images, even the use of prayer beads for meditation and to keep count of how many times one has repeated a prayer, i.e. like the Japa mala that the Buddhists and Hindus use [the ≈100-bead chains of prayer beads come from these ancient Asian religions—not YHWH worship]).



About Mecca... idea

It's interesting that Mecca is also on seven hills. Muslims also use prayer beads (called "Misbaha" or "Tasbih"). User Image Beyond that, I don't know what to make of Mecca. All I know is the whore makes everyone prostitute themselves and is responsible for killing the servants of God, thus God exacting revenge back on her (Jerusalem and Rome are guilty of this too).

      • Revelation 19:2 (NIV)

        2 for true and just are his judgments.
        He has condemned the great prostitute
            who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
            He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”


Mecca = Islam.

Obviously, Radical Islamists are killing Christians and Jews. But is Islam making people whore? (well, now that I think about it, that Kaaba site contains the Black Stone...).

    The Black Stone (or Hajarul Aswad, Arabic: الحجر الأسود‎ al-Ḥajar al-Aswad) is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba, the ancient stone building, located in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. It is revered by Muslims as an Islamic relic which, according to Muslim tradition, dates back to the time of Adam and Eve.[1]

    The stone was venerated at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic pagan times. According to Islamic tradition, it was set intact into the Kaaba's wall by the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the year 605 A.D., five years before his first revelation. Since then it has been broken into a number of fragments and is now cemented into a silver frame in the side of the Kaaba. Its physical appearance is that of a fragmented dark rock, polished smooth by the hands of pilgrims. Islamic tradition holds that it fell from the heaven as a guide for Adam and Eve to build an altar, although it has often been described as a meteorite, a hypothesis, which is now uncertain.[2]

    Muslim pilgrims circle the Kaaba as a part of the tawaf ritual during the hajj and many try to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that Islamic tradition records that it received from Muhammad.[3][4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

    [...]

    [...] The Semitic cultures of the Middle East had a tradition of using unusual stones to mark places of worship, a phenomenon which is reflected in the Hebrew Bible as well as the Qur'an,[10] although bowing to or kissing such sacred objects is repeatedly described in the Tanakh as idolatrous[11] and was the subject of prophetic rebuke.[12][13][14][15][16][17] Some writers remark on the apparent similarity of the Black Stone and its frame to the external female genitalia,[18][19] and ascribe this to its earlier association with fertility rites of Arabia.[20][21]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone#History_and_tradition


Do you know how many people make a pilgrimage to Mecca and bow down towards the Kaaba? with this idol next to it? :l

    [...] Today, more than 15 million Muslims visit Mecca annually, including several million during the few days of the Hajj.[...]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca


All of these people bowing down to that stone. That is idolatrous. That is adultery to the Most High.

Not to mention, Muhammad is an idol himself. He denies Jesus is the sacrifice for sins whom the prophet Isaiah foretold about (thus denies the prophets).

And Muhammad denies the law of God: YHWH says to not take back a wife after she has joined herself to another man, that defiles the land (Deuteronomy 24:1-4), but Muhammad says, that's cool (Surah 2:230)

        YHWH says

      • Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (NIV)

        24 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the Lord. Do not bring sin upon the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.


        Muhammad says

      • Surah 2:230 SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

        And if he has divorced her [for the third time], then she is not lawful to him afterward until [after] she marries a husband other than him. And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies], there is no blame upon the woman and her former husband for returning to each other if they think that they can keep [within] the limits of Allah . These are the limits of Allah , which He makes clear to a people who know.


Ergo, Muhammad denies the law (of YHWH) and the prophets (Isaiah, servant of YHWH).

Contrary to scripture:

      • Acts 24:14 (NIV)

        14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,


/end Mecca


That said, bringing these details to light about Jerusalem (that her foreign relation connections are far reaching as well and that she sits on 7 hills too) doesn't actually help reach a verdict in all this. How is Jerusalem making the nations whore? If anything, the Christian and Muslim adherents outnumber the Jews. If there were more clear descriptions in scripture available (for instance, if scripture had said, "and the whore is the holy city where our Lord was crucified", the way Jerusalem is described in Revelation 11), then it would be obvious that it was Jerusalem and rule out Rome (and Mecca) entirely, but no such detail exists. So Rome is still a suspect. A very big suspect. As is Mecca. ninja More people should talk about her. Although if either of the two (Christians or Muslims) take over Jerusalem, then...Jerusalem could be the whore. Jerusalem will be handed over to the Gentiles after all idea

      • Revelation 11:1-2 (NIV)

        11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.


If everyone weren't such whores / adulterers when it came to the commands of God, but were actually loyal to the commands, this would be much easier to narrow down...but alas adultery, adultery everywhere.

      • James 4:4 (NIV)

        4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

        Footnotes:

        a. James 4:4 An allusion to covenant unfaithfulness; see Hosea 3:1.


Clearly, the great city of Babylon is full of adulteries::

      • Revelation 17:5 (NIV)

        5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

                                  BABYLON THE GREAT

                            THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES

                      AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.



And at the time, clearly I had a brain fart, because I didn't answer the question, “how is Jerusalem making the nations whore?”. Jerusalem is making people whore by allowing Buddhist centers to be established in Israel, by allowing Christmas and Halloween celebrations in their midst, by preaching tolerance of religion, though God is not for that at all. But I don't know whether to call her the mother of prostitutes [the mother of covenant unfaithfulness?], the mother of abominations.

Whoever this Spiritual Babylon is though, it is a city. Rome is a city. Jerusalem is a city. Mecca is a city. “America” is not a city (but there are cities in America who claim to be built on 7 hills, there are cities in America who are full of idolatry, who have many economic relations, and who have political power over the kings/rulers of other nations; however I don't see any particular American city being known for its history of shedding the blood of God's servants? Aside from the general anti-theist spirit that can be found here, but no actual blood shed, unless we're talking abortion, but in that case, the believing parents are the ones giving permission to murder their child, they're not being killed unwillingly at the hands of the enemy). Rome and Jerusalem (and even Mecca), so far, are closer to the Biblical criteria than what has been offered concerning an American city. What I see as a recurring theme in all of these options though: they're all cities that hold to the God of Abraham, despite being adulterous / unfaithful to the Covenant (Jerusalem, Rome, Mecca, and whatever city in America you are deducing this to; the country of the US (which started out as colonies) were established to practice freedom of religion based on the Word of God, without submitting to the Catholic church tradition that was nullifying Scripture, but the USA has long departed from glorifying God).

All of this to finally say and reiterate: the only place of safety is YHWH Himself and walking in what He says is right. The plagues come from Him. Whatever chance of avoiding said plagues we have is doing what He said, whether we're in Jerusalem or in another city. Regardless of where we are, He finds a way to save/protect those who sincerely want to walk in His Way of Holiness.
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:33 am
cristobela
From what you've written (so far) I'm gathering that you're saying one of two things (I think it's the latter):

either:

• you don't believe that we, the believers of God, will be on earth, during the great tribulation nor during the Lamb's wrath with the seal of God on our foreheads (to avoid suffering the plagues that God sends, like the Israelites avoided in Egypt. They didn't suffer but the surrounding Egyptians did, despite both living in the same country). But instead, you believe they'll be removed from the planet before the dead in Christ resurrect from the dead (even though the first resurrection is described in Revelation 20, not before then)?

or

• You agree that they are on the earth, but that they won't be dispersed throughout the earth during this time; all living believers will be physically gathered in the nation of Israel during this time to not feel the effects of the plagues God will send on the other nations...?


I'm sorry, but I don't agree with anything you shared. And neither of these are what I was speaking of, but something different altogether...  

CherieBunnie

Sugary Hourglass


CherieBunnie

Sugary Hourglass

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:27 pm
cristobela


Oh also, btw, regarding your "we're not supposed to eat pork" claim, which I've been looking into:

God told Noah when he left the ark that everything that moved was good for him to eat.

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

From Noah to Moses, every creature of God was good and nothing to be refused.

How do you explain that away?

Besides, Hebrews says that those carnal ordinances were only imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

And Colossians explains how they were only imposed on the Israelites as a shadow of things to come.

Colossians 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

As a friend of mine likes to put it:

"Unclean beasts were restricted as a picture that we ought not consume that which is unclean spiritually. Unleavened bread is frequently used as a metaphor for the word of God (the Bible) contrasted with leavened bread (religions that add to the word) and unclean beasts (ideologies that are completely against the Bible)."  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:48 pm
CherieBunnie
cristobela


Oh also, btw, regarding your "we're not supposed to eat pork" claim, which I've been looking into:

God told Noah when he left the ark that everything that moved was good for him to eat.

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

From Noah to Moses, every creature of God was good and nothing to be refused.

How do you explain that away?


I covered this at length on page 3 of this topic: [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored] (I linked directly to the reply dealing with Noah, by the way; just let the page load and it will automatically jump you to it). There's a total of 5 ignored details. It'll take you approximately 6 minutes to read, if you read slowly and outloud (so it'll probably take you less time).

CherieBunnie
Besides, Hebrews says that those carnal ordinances were only imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.


Or as the NIV renders it "until the time of the new order". Animals are going to be different when that happens. They will be restored to eat like they use to in the beginning—before sin, decay, disease and death entered into creation—they will eat only the green herb / the green plant, (Genesis 1:30); ergo, they will be different at the time of the restoration of all things when Jesus returns.

      • Acts 3:21 (NIV)

        21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

      • Isaiah 65:25 (NIV)

        25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
            and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
            and dust will be the serpent’s food.
        They will neither harm nor destroy
            on all my holy mountain,”
                says the Lord.


But until then, just like Isaiah continues to identify them (in agreement with Jesus/the Word of God), they are unclean:

      • Isaiah 66:17 (NIV)

        17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord.


Like I already mentioned, as long as those animals continue to do unclean things (eat blood, rotting matter, remove pathogens from the environment, etc—or feast on an animal who does) they will continue to be unclean as Jesus agreed in Revelation 18:2.

It's great that you're looking into the Scriptures to verify that what I'm telling you is correct, but I'll tell you right now, the reason I started compiling these details in that topic is because traditional interpretations ignore them in the first place. And people gloss over them as they read the chapter (I use to as well until the Holy Spirit started pointing them out once I started reading without commentary, commentary that redirected my attention elsewhere so I didn't notice it).


CherieBunnie
[And Colossians explains how they were only imposed on the Israelites as a shadow of things to come.

Colossians 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The handwriting of ordinances, that was against us, is our record of sins. That's what was nailed to the cross. Our record of sins, our guilt.

Until this earth with these heavens—full of sin, disease, and death—passes away, those Commands still protect us because they're instructing us on how to interact with God's creations in the Way that guards our good in this cursed earth full of sin and disease. Want to be protected in that area of earthly life? Obey them.

      • Deuteronomy 10:12-13 (NIV)

        12 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

      • Joshua 1:8 (NIV)

        8 Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.

      • Proverbs 7:2 (NIV)

        2 Keep my commands and you will live;
          guard my teachings as the apple of your eye.


And you're adding to the words of Scripture in the way you summarize things: it was not given only as a shadow of things to come—there are practical things about what is Commanded that would keep us safe—but yes, they do prophesy about Jesus too. Like I mentioned in my replies to you above, when explaining the Isaiah chapters, which you thought were only end times related, I said that the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets prophesy about Christ. I'm not unaware.

The specific verse I was alluding to:

      • Luke 24:44-45 (NIV)

        44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

        45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.


CherieBunnie
As a friend of mine likes to put it:

"Unclean beasts were restricted as a picture that we ought not consume that which is unclean spiritually. Unleavened bread is frequently used as a metaphor for the word of God (the Bible) contrasted with leavened bread (religions that add to the word) and unclean beasts (ideologies that are completely against the Bible)."


And I agree that unclean beasts are "a picture that we ought not consume that which is unclean spiritually". But there's a reason why these animals were chosen to be a symbolic representation of what is spiritually unclean. They literally do and feed on unclean things (directly or indirectly). For example, rolling around in feces and eating feces, even picking poop out of their own butts [video] or eating it straight out of someone else's [video], eating rotting, decaying corpses [video] and blood, filtering harmful chemicals and contaminants out of the environment [article], or indirectly feeding on an animal who does.

I'll give you an example: a crab finds a rotting, seagull carcass in the sand which gets eaten by the crab, crab gets eaten by an octopus, the octopus gets eaten by a man OR man eats the rotting seagull carcass directly—in either case, you get the dead, rotting matter in you, directly or indirectly. And like I covered in the topic, rotting bodies give off cadaverine and putrescine which are toxic when ingested in large amounts; just one practical reason why they are still unclean [pathogen-containing], thus a detriment to us, but there was more covered in the topic).

In the same manner, people feed on unclean thoughts and unclean attitudes either directly or indirectly—directly spurring up in the thoughts of their own heart / imaginations or they get the unclean thought passed on to them by someone else in conversation, who in turn got it rubbed off on them by a TV show or someone else or a religious authority. Same with an unclean attitude. Similar, but not equivalent to, eating something which is leavened—a symbol that is both likened to the doctrine of the Pharisees but also to the kingdom of heaven. So it's not equivalent.

        Good Leaven

      • Matthew 13:33 (KJV)

        33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.


        Bad Leaven

      • Matthew 16:11 (KJV)

        11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

      • Matthew 22:23-29 (KJV)

        23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

        24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

        25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

        26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

        27 And last of all the woman died also.

        28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.


        29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


The Sadducees were ignorant of the details of Scripture. And like I addressed in the other topic, as did the Pharisees in their interpretations, even nullifying Commands of God in their interpretation, a behavior which Jesus rebuked.

And I say similar because leavened bread was never considered unclean the way these animals are, and no Pharisee or Sadducee ate unclean, just leavened. But yes, the leaven of the Pharisees, as I addressed in the topic as well (not by that phrase, but in practice what that looked like) should not be consumed—traditional doctrines and interpretations, taught by the religious authority, that nullified the Commands of God.

An unclean thought / an unclean attitude is contagious and easily self-derived, a holy thought and a holy attitude is not. It must be given to you by God. Likewise, you don't heal someone of leprosy by rubbing them up against someone who is healthy and unafflicted; but the leprosy will infect the one who didn't have leprosy in the first place. Only God can heal the leprosy. The physical demonstrates the spiritual, and the physical doesn't stop being true (until the restoration of all things) just because we were able to see a spiritual principle demonstrated in the physical. Not only will unclean animals stop being unclean at the restoration of all things, but there won't be any sickness either. Those physical examples will cease to exist. But both are still unclean things in this earth and these heavens.

And like I also addressed in the topic, when Jesus tells us to drink His blood—blood being an unclean thing to eat—(but not literally eat it, it was in symbol by drinking the wine), it doesn't all of a sudden mean: blood, from here on out, is food for you. Blood didn't pass anyone's lips at the Last Supper. Neither did an unclean animal pass through Peter's lips when he saw the vision three times. And just because Jesus commanded us to eat something unclean in symbol, in both cases, it didn't all of a sudden actually make the literal eating of that thing okay to do. It still poses a detriment to us on a physical level—to eat blood and other unclean things.

I've been noticing these details (with the help of the Holy Spirit), and thus why I've been exposing them in the topic: [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored]. The topic was meant to be read in its entirety however: starting with the foundation, who is Jesus, and to whom I submit my every thought to (thus why I started the topic with His teachings).

      • 2 Corinthians 10:5 (NIV)

        5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

      • Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV)

        19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 

cristobela
Vice Captain


CherieBunnie

Sugary Hourglass

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:13 pm
cristobela
I covered this at length on page 3 of this topic: [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored] (I linked directly to the reply dealing with Noah, by the way; just let the page load and it will automatically jump you to it). There's a total of 5 ignored details. It'll take you approximately 6 minutes to read, if you read slowly and outloud (so it'll probably take you less time).


Oh I read all of that, and it doesn't make any sense.

cristobela
Or as the NIV renders it "until the time of the new order"


Sorry I don't read the NIV. It's based off of the minority texts. New World Order? Are you kidding me?

The KJV says the time of reformation, which was the time of Christ.

You can look up the Greek word διόρθωσις. Strong's Exhaustive concordance gives this definition:

reformation.
From a compound of dia and a derivative of orthos, meaning to straighten thoroughly; rectification, i.e. (specially) the Messianic restauration -- reformation
.

cristobela
Acts 3:21 (NIV)

21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Isaiah 65:25 (NIV)

25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.


Neither of these prove your point that the phrase "until the time of the reformation" refers to after Christ returns.

cristobela
But until then, just like Isaiah continues to identify them (in agreement with Jesus/the Word of God), they are unclean:

Isaiah 66:17 (NIV)

17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord.


No animal is unclean if it's been sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

1 Tim 4:5 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

What's the word of God? Jesus Christ!

How is it sanctified by Christ? Because he blotted out those ordinances and nailed them to his cross!!

Therefore it is sanctified BY CHRIST and our prayer of thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

cristobela
The handwriting of ordinances, that was against us, is our record of sins. That's what was nailed to the cross. Our record of sins, our guilt


No it's not. The Greek word δόγμασιν translated to "ordinances" only occurs twice in the new testament, and both times it's referring to the laws set in place for the Israelites. This is the other verse in which it occurs:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Pretty clear.

cristobela
when explaining the Isaiah chapters, which you thought were only end times related, I said that the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets prophesy about Christ. I'm not unaware.


I didn't say that everything in these book are end times related. Clearly it's not. Isaiah 53 for example is definitely about Christ. Now the chapters I did share were evidently clear that they were about the end of times. And again, there is only ONE day of the Lord. I have no idea where you got the idea that there are multiple days of the Lord. There's no proof of that in the Bible.

cristobela
I've been noticing these details (with the help of the Holy Spirit), and thus why I've been exposing them in the topic: [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored]. The topic was meant to be read in its entirety however: starting with the foundation, who is Jesus, and to whom I submit my every thought to (thus why I started the topic with His teachings).


And I say my understanding comes from the Holy Spirit, too.

I do wonder, however, are you going to church, are you learning from a pastor, are you following someone online...?  
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