My college professor taught me about Doctrine and while I'm no expert in it, the idea of identity in Christ fascinates me. One of the best things about Nazarene district assemblies is every few years they get together and discuss changes to the book that lays out their beliefs, who they are as Christians and it is constantly changing, however many constants there may be.
It's fun to hear this being debated, even if I don't always understand what's being said. ^w^
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:00 am
Saikii
My college professor taught me about Doctrine and while I'm no expert in it, the idea of identity in Christ fascinates me. One of the best things about Nazarene district assemblies is every few years they get together and discuss changes to the book that lays out their beliefs, who they are as Christians and it is constantly changing, however many constants there may be.
It's fun to hear this being debated, even if I don't always understand what's being said. ^w^
I think that the bible itself has been changed and even twisted over the years. That's generally what it is; a mess of verses, and every single one may or may not have been tampered with by someone looking to mess with it. The book is ever-changing, and although some content may change, not many's faith will.
Doctrine, as you are describing it, is merely what man teaches about the Bible—and that is not necessarily equivalent to what the Bible actually has documented in the scrolls. Man's interpretation vs. Scripture. Knowing that, a couple of reasons why doctrine (what they teach) in a church would change is either because...
(1) man has realized they have not been acknowledging a Scriptural truth, or that they have added traditions and interpretations that do not respect what is written and even directly nullifies what the Bible documents; they realize this and go back to what the Scripture says, in obedience.
For example, during King Josiah's reign:
2 Kings 22:8-13 (NIV)
8 Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the Lord and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.
11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Akbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the Lord for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the Lord’s anger that burns against us because those who have gone before us have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”
In response to rediscovering God's Will, King Josiah started getting rid of idolatrous practices / practices that violate the Commands of God (and idolatrous people).
2 Kings 23:1-7 (NIV)
23 Then the king called together all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem. 2 He went up to the temple of the Lord with the people of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the priests and the prophets—all the people from the least to the greatest. He read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant, which had been found in the temple of the Lord. 3 The king stood by the pillar and renewed the covenant in the presence of the Lord—to follow the Lord and keep his commands, statutes and decrees with all his heart and all his soul, thus confirming the words of the covenant written in this book. Then all the people pledged themselves to the covenant.
4 The king ordered Hilkiah the high priest, the priests next in rank and the doorkeepers to remove from the temple of the Lord all the articles made for Baal and Asherah and all the starry hosts. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron Valley and took the ashes to Bethel. 5 He did away with the idolatrous priests appointed by the kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those around Jerusalem—those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon, to the constellations and to all the starry hosts. 6 He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the Lord to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people. 7 He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes that were in the temple of the Lord, the quarters where women did weaving for Asherah.
(2) the doctrinal change is caused by their being disobedient in the first place, by ignoring what's written, in favor of what they wish the Scriptures taught, making up traditions and traditional sayings / interpretations that nullify what is written / in place of respecting what is there. Ergo a change in YHWH's sound doctrine to deviant doctrine.
For example, the Pharisees:
Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV)
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16 b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9 c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
They did not respect what is read from Moses' seat—but Jesus said that we must, and that we must not to be like the Pharisees who set Commands of God aside and add their own self-imposed burdens (traditions), like the hand-washing ritual alluded to above.
Matthew 23:1-4 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
It's actually a sin to add or take away from the Law of God. Jesus was sinless.
1 John 3:4 (NIV)
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (NIV)
2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Mercurite
Saikii
My college professor taught me about Doctrine and while I'm no expert in it, the idea of identity in Christ fascinates me. One of the best things about Nazarene district assemblies is every few years they get together and discuss changes to the book that lays out their beliefs, who they are as Christians and it is constantly changing, however many constants there may be.
It's fun to hear this being debated, even if I don't always understand what's being said. ^w^
I think that the bible itself has been changed and even twisted over the years. That's generally what it is; a mess of verses, and every single one may or may not have been tampered with by someone looking to mess with it. The book is ever-changing, and although some content may change, not many's faith will.
And Scripture is not a mess once you read through it all firsthand and notice the consistency of the message from Genesis to Revelation (this entails that you ignore self-imposed, man-made doctrine and just allow the Bible to speak for itself).
For example, and to answer the question of what I think about doctrine:
Proverbs 4:2 (KJV)
2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
1 Timothy 1:8 (KJV)
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1 Timothy 4:16 (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
YHWH's sense of doctrine (His Law, His Commands, what He believes is wrong or right) is what matters. Man's doctrine (what they teach they think the Bible says) is not always equivalent to God's doctrine, what the Bible says in its entirety, what God defines as sound doctrine (His Commandments, and obedience to what His Commands simply state); unlike the Pharisees who—in the examples that I showed above—would come up with justifications for not obeying, come up with excuses, saying that they were disobeying a Command to honor God, but as Jesus clearly demonstrated, He/God does not find those excuses acceptable).
I have a topic compiling areas of Scripture that churches do not give the light of day, which is impacting their doctrine, and why they do not agree with God's definition of doctrine in the Bible (a few of those verses I touched upon here, but there are many, many more). [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored]
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:05 pm
cristobela
Doctrine, as you are describing it, is merely what man teaches about the Bible—and that is not necessarily equivalent to what the Bible actually has documented in the scrolls. Man's interpretation vs. Scripture. Knowing that, a couple of reasons why doctrine (what they teach) in a church would change is either because...
(1) man has realized they have not been acknowledging a Scriptural truth, or that they have added traditions and interpretations that do not respect what is written and even directly nullifies what the Bible documents; they realize this and go back to what the Scripture says, in obedience.
For example, during King Josiah's reign:
2 Kings 22:8-13 (NIV)
8 Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the Lord and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.
11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Akbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the Lord for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the Lord’s anger that burns against us because those who have gone before us have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”
In response to rediscovering God's Will, King Josiah started getting rid of idolatrous practices / practices that violate the Commands of God (and idolatrous people).
2 Kings 23:1-7 (NIV)
23 Then the king called together all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem. 2 He went up to the temple of the Lord with the people of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the priests and the prophets—all the people from the least to the greatest. He read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant, which had been found in the temple of the Lord. 3 The king stood by the pillar and renewed the covenant in the presence of the Lord—to follow the Lord and keep his commands, statutes and decrees with all his heart and all his soul, thus confirming the words of the covenant written in this book. Then all the people pledged themselves to the covenant.
4 The king ordered Hilkiah the high priest, the priests next in rank and the doorkeepers to remove from the temple of the Lord all the articles made for Baal and Asherah and all the starry hosts. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron Valley and took the ashes to Bethel. 5 He did away with the idolatrous priests appointed by the kings of Judah to burn incense on the high places of the towns of Judah and on those around Jerusalem—those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and moon, to the constellations and to all the starry hosts. 6 He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the Lord to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people. 7 He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes that were in the temple of the Lord, the quarters where women did weaving for Asherah.
(2) the doctrinal change is caused by their being disobedient in the first place, by ignoring what's written, in favor of what they wish the Scriptures taught, making up traditions and traditional sayings / interpretations that nullify what is written / in place of respecting what is there. Ergo a change in YHWH's sound doctrine to deviant doctrine.
For example, the Pharisees:
Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV)
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16 b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9 c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
They did not respect what is read from Moses' seat—but Jesus said that we must, and that we must not to be like the Pharisees who set Commands of God aside and add their own self-imposed burdens (traditions), like the hand-washing ritual alluded to above.
Matthew 23:1-4 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV)
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
It's actually a sin to add or take away from the Law of God. Jesus was sinless.
1 John 3:4 (NIV)
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (NIV)
2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.
Mercurite
Saikii
My college professor taught me about Doctrine and while I'm no expert in it, the idea of identity in Christ fascinates me. One of the best things about Nazarene district assemblies is every few years they get together and discuss changes to the book that lays out their beliefs, who they are as Christians and it is constantly changing, however many constants there may be.
It's fun to hear this being debated, even if I don't always understand what's being said. ^w^
I think that the bible itself has been changed and even twisted over the years. That's generally what it is; a mess of verses, and every single one may or may not have been tampered with by someone looking to mess with it. The book is ever-changing, and although some content may change, not many's faith will.
And Scripture is not a mess once you read through it all firsthand and notice the consistency of the message from Genesis to Revelation (this entails that you ignore self-imposed, man-made doctrine and just allow the Bible to speak for itself).
For example, and to answer the question of what I think about doctrine:
Proverbs 4:2 (KJV)
2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
1 Timothy 1:8 (KJV)
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1 Timothy 4:16 (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
YHWH's sense of doctrine (His Law, His Commands, what He believes is wrong or right) is what matters. Man's doctrine (what they teach they think the Bible says) is not always equivalent to God's doctrine, what the Bible says in its entirety, what God defines as sound doctrine (His Commandments, and obedience to what His Commands simply state); unlike the Pharisees who—in the examples that I showed above—would come up with justifications for not obeying, come up with excuses, saying that they were disobeying a Command to honor God, but as Jesus clearly demonstrated, He/God does not find those excuses acceptable).
I have a topic compiling areas of Scripture that churches do not give the light of day, which is impacting their doctrine, and why they do not agree with God's definition of doctrine in the Bible (a few of those verses I touched upon here, but there are many, many more). [Details in the New Testament that Get Ignored]
Technically, there is more than one type of bible. Is that not considered doctorine when religions branch off from one and design their bible based off of the original one?
Technically, there is more than one type of bible. Is that not considered doctorine when religions branch off from one and design their bible based off of the original one?
Your first sentence is a drastically different concept from your second statement.
About "more than one type of bible": if what you're referring to is one version using old English, another version using modern English, or in the case of translating a Hebrew or Greek term, but it can be translated in various ways in English, one version using a particular English term, but another translation using a synonym (the AMP tends to put many words, and many ways of saying it, right alongside each other because of this), then no, Biblical doctrine is not changed because of that.
Man's doctrine (interpretation of the Bible) can change even when they're using the same translation of the Bible because of not taking into account certain verses, nor consistently applying that truth to everything they think, and instead relying on what has been traditionally interpreted / said by people despite of what the text says. A lot of church splits happen because of this.
But they also split because of disagreements based on their own self-imposed traditions that are not found in the Bible, and some split because one group within them wants to genuinely submit to something in the Bible and the other doesn't. I already provided the standard that Jesus (and Paul) identified to assess each group for how deviant it is: YHWH's Law, His Commands, what the Father and Son say to do.
But deliberate changes to Biblical doctrine would be things like the [Queen James Version] that deliberately tries to change the message of the Commands of God because they don't like what the Scrolls have historically documented and what the Commands say to do.
Similarly, cults (and a "cult" by Christian definition as I explained to you in my PM's, as opposed to how the world uses the word "cult" which would include all religions, even the atheistic, self-worshiping kind. So based on a Christian definition of cult) such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc.
And to answer the second statement: "Is that not considered doctorine when religions branch off from one and design their bible based off of the original one?"
Sure it's considered doctrine, false doctrine, not Biblical doctrine / sound doctrine.
In the case of JW's: they translate a Bible dishonestly in light of what the original language says (their bible is called the New World Translation, and like the Queen James Version, they deviate from the diction and meaning of the original language); for example, the JW's translate John 1:1 to deny that Jesus and YHWH are one, just because they find it hard to believe, not because of the Greek grammar or Greek word choice in the manuscripts).
In the Mormons case: they accept additional writings from a man they view as a prophet, Joseph Smith, who has been proven to be lying about what is revelation from YHWH and the patriarchs (Joseph Smith claimed to have translated Egyptian papyri, identifying it as "the Book of Abraham" because , he said, it spoke of Abraham. But when the hieroglyphics were deciphered, it was about a burial procedure, specifically embalment practices, nothing to do with Abraham). https://carm.org/book-abraham-papyri-and-joseph-smith
So, in short:
If a translation is dishonest to the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew diction found in the manuscripts, then it is a false translation.
If an interpretation (man's doctrine) of the translated text deviates from YHWH's Commands (YHWH's doctrine), then it is a false interpretation. (and I tackled those false, lawless interpretations in the topic I linked to above; this deviance happens because they ignore [or are unaware of] certain verses in the body of text, even of the New Testament.)
"Translation" (for example, going from Hebrew or Greek to English) and "interpretation" (what does this English text say?) are not equivalent. However, based on the type of translation that it is (for instance, a thought-for-thought translation, as oppose to word-for-word translation, yes there can be doctrinal statements injected into a translation—because they want to translate meaning instead of what the original language actually says; and if their understanding of the meaning is wrong, their translation will be wrong; thus there's more safety in studying the original languages and not putting trust in any particular translation).
An example of that was hashed out in this conversation with CherieBunnie: [What is the synagogue of Satan in Revelation?] starting at the second quote of the first reply on that page. Though it may be hard to follow along, and I must warn you it was a long conversation that was had over the span of several weeks.
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