BY REV. MARK H. CREECH , CHRISTIAN POST COLUMNIST November 2, 2016|12:04 pm
Tim Walter, in a sermon titled, Filled with God's Grace and Power, said, "Golden calves are built in every generation…"
We don't seem to see it that way. We mostly think of idolatry as something long abandoned to the past. But just as sure as the gods of the Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, and the Romans of yesteryear clashed with the bearers of true religion, it is no less true today.
Religious liberty cannot be separated from its Christian roots and survive. Moreover, religious liberty is at the heart of all other freedoms. It's still not too late to save freedom.
........................................ question
I'm aware that Christian individuals have traditionally supported "religious liberty", but where in the Bible, in the Commands of God, is the concept of religious liberty supported...? the concept of, "worship whatever you like, however you like, no consequences, and you'll stay living amongst us"? or "go defend the practice of worshiping any god you like"?
Biblical Christianity supports no such thing. This article is an example of more worldly compromise within the Church. "Religious liberty" isn't Christian (like Christ) because Christ submitted all things to the Father's Commands. Where in the Bible are Christians called to preserve the religion of others?
Furthermore, religious liberty is bondage—not freedom—because "religious liberty" leaves people enslaved to idols, false gods, and demons of the world, enslaved to their sins/sinful nature, with a government that absolutely refuses, under any circumstances, to punish to death what God calls a grievous crime against His creation, but allows capital sins to propagate. So, no, "religious liberty" is not Christian. But many who support the concept of "religious liberty" claim to be Christian despite it being at odds with their God. They side more with the constitution of a worldly kingdom than the constitution of the Heavenly Kingdom.
What is the God of the Bible actually in favor of?
Acts 14:15 (NIV)
15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
1 Chronicles 14:10-12 (NIV)
10 so David inquired of God: “Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you deliver them into my hands?”
The Lord answered him, “Go, I will deliver them into your hands.”
11 So David and his men went up to Baal Perazim, and there he defeated them. He said, “As waters break out, God has broken out against my enemies by my hand.” So that place was called Baal Perazim.[a] 12 The Philistines had abandoned their gods there, and David gave orders to burn them in the fire.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Chronicles 14:11 Baal Perazim means the lord who breaks out.
We should fight against the gentiles' beliefs in such a way that they abandon their false notions of God. We make them realize that their idols are worthless and useless to save them. We utterly destroy their false notions of god. Not, "let's preserve a gentile law—that the gentiles themselves will not hold to in integrity—to defend the worship of other gods".
And yet, what did this nation [USA] do? Enable this very thing by law.
Biblically, however, we are not to defend the free choice nor free exercise of religion, thus not support the existence of false religions amongst us period, but identify them for the worthlessness that they are. And move people away from it and defeat it entirely, wipe it from the face of the earth.
---
On the bright side, I will say this though: by giving them what they want, they are in essence dealing themselves a checkmate because God is against religious liberty. And if that's what they're aiming to eliminate (eliminating free exercise of religion in practice, even if not by what they say), then they're indirectly—unbeknownst to them—working to fulfill / establish YHWH's Law. They are His servants whether they are aware of it or not. Democracy will be defeated one day and Jesus' reign, a monarchy/theocracy, will be established. One faith to rule supreme. Not the allowance of other religions to continue existing alongside Him. All other opponents / enemies / replacement gods will be destroyed.
Zechariah 14:9 (NIV)
9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NIV)
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 15:27 Psalm 8:6
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV)
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Footnotes:
a. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin
Clearly, this includes defeating the man of lawlessness as well (who appears to be waging war against every other religion / thing called god too).
On the not-so-bright side: this article is parroting a phrase that sounds nice without really thinking about what that looks like in practical terms: in order for "religious liberty" to exist, Christians must allow the religion of the secularists, a replacement of Christianity, to continue existing alongside them. That is what religious liberty claims to do (with their mouths only, of course, not in practice: make religions coexist, eliminating none). Reality, however, disagrees with the concept of religious liberty/allowing religions to coexist, even if people claim to support it, because a government cannot remain neutral to morality; it will be imposing someone's morality over the other's, and it cannot be submitted under more than one.
Matthew 6:24 (NIV)
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
So, "religious liberty" is definitely not the philosophy of the Bible/reality. And anyone fighting to support the idea of "religious liberty" is lacking discernment; they are helping the kingdom of darkness. "Religious liberty" is one of those "calf idols" constructed by past generations. And that is why this nation is so deviated today. It entered into covenant with idolatry by deviating from God's Commands; we essentially can apply "free exercise of religion" to say, "welcome Zeus, Isis, Horus, Artemis, atheist philosophies, etc; we allow the worship of you here".
Exodus 23:32 (NIV)
32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods.
Exodus 23:33 (NIV)
33 Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you.”
Well, would you look at that—it happened just like God said would happen. The worship of their gods, their values, their false notions of morality, have become a snare for us because we allow them all in our land. God is glorified whether we heed, thus walk in, His Commands or disobey / ignore His Commands. But woe to us when He is glorified through our disobedience. He is always right. The consequences will happen as He said they would. People have not really repented if they continue dis-agreeing with the Father's Commands (which means they never truly accepted Christ who agreed with the Father). He is not going to act in our favour until true repentance happens. But knowing man's history, He'll have to make this nation suffer first under the rule of their gentile / uncircumcised-in-heart oppressors.
2 Chronicles 7:14 (NIV)
14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Psalm 106:35-42 (NIV)
35 but they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. 36 They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to false gods. 38 They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. 39 They defiled themselves by what they did; by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
40 Therefore the Lord was angry with his people and abhorred his inheritance. 41 He gave them into the hands of the nations, and their foes ruled over them. 42 Their enemies oppressed them and subjected them to their power.
Judges 3:8-10 (NIV)
8 The anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that he sold them into the hands of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim,[a] to whom the Israelites were subject for eight years. 9 But when they cried out to the Lord, he raised up for them a deliverer, Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother, who saved them. 10 The Spirit of the Lord came on him, so that he became Israel’s judge[b] and went to war. The Lord gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.
Footnotes:
a. Judges 3:8 That is, Northwest Mesopotamia b. Judges 3:10 Or leader
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Garland-Green
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:47 pm
cristobela
Quote:
Religious liberty cannot be separated from its Christian roots and survive. Moreover, religious liberty is at the heart of all other freedoms. It's still not too late to save freedom.
........................................ question
I'm aware that Christian individuals have traditionally supported "religious liberty", but where in the Bible, in the Commands of God, is the concept of religious liberty supported...? the concept of, "worship whatever you like, however you like, no consequences, and you'll stay living amongst us"? or "go defend the practice of worshiping any god you like"?
Biblical Christianity supports no such thing. This article is an example of more worldly compromise within the Church. "Religious liberty" isn't Christian (like Christ) because Christ submitted all things to the Father's Commands. Where in the Bible are Christians called to preserve the religion of others?
Furthermore, religious liberty is bondage—not freedom—because "religious liberty" leaves people enslaved to idols, false gods, and demons of the world, enslaved to their sins/sinful nature, with a government that absolutely refuses, under any circumstances, to punish to death what God calls a grievous crime against His creation, but allows capital sins to propagate. So, no, "religious liberty" is not Christian. But many who support the concept of "religious liberty" claim to be Christian despite it being at odds with their God. They side more with the constitution of a worldly kingdom than the constitution of the Heavenly Kingdom.
What is the God of the Bible actually in favor of?
Acts 14:15 (NIV)
15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
1 Chronicles 14:10-12 (NIV)
10 so David inquired of God: “Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you deliver them into my hands?”
The Lord answered him, “Go, I will deliver them into your hands.”
11 So David and his men went up to Baal Perazim, and there he defeated them. He said, “As waters break out, God has broken out against my enemies by my hand.” So that place was called Baal Perazim.[a] 12 The Philistines had abandoned their gods there, and David gave orders to burn them in the fire.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Chronicles 14:11 Baal Perazim means the lord who breaks out.
We should fight against the gentiles' beliefs in such a way that they abandon their false notions of God. We make them realize that their idols are worthless and useless to save them. We utterly destroy their false notions of god. Not, "let's preserve a gentile law—that the gentiles themselves will not hold to in integrity—to defend the worship of other gods".
And yet, what did this nation [USA] do? Enable this very thing by law.
Biblically, however, we are not to defend the free choice nor free exercise of religion, thus not support the existence of false religions amongst us period, but identify them for the worthlessness that they are. And move people away from it and defeat it entirely, wipe it from the face of the earth.
---
On the bright side, I will say this though: by giving them what they want, they are in essence dealing themselves a checkmate because God is against religious liberty. And if that's what they're aiming to eliminate (eliminating free exercise of religion in practice, even if not by what they say), then they're indirectly—unbeknownst to them—working to fulfill / establish YHWH's Law. They are His servants whether they are aware of it or not. Democracy will be defeated one day and Jesus' reign, a monarchy/theocracy, will be established. One faith to rule supreme. Not the allowance of other religions to continue existing alongside Him. All other opponents / enemies / replacement gods will be destroyed.
Zechariah 14:9 (NIV)
9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NIV)
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 15:27 Psalm 8:6
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV)
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Footnotes:
a. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Some manuscripts sin
Clearly, this includes defeating the man of lawlessness as well (who appears to be waging war against every other religion / thing called god too).
On the not-so-bright side: this article is parroting a phrase that sounds nice without really thinking about what that looks like in practical terms: in order for "religious liberty" to exist, Christians must allow the religion of the secularists, a replacement of Christianity, to continue existing alongside them. That is what religious liberty claims to do (with their mouths only, of course, not in practice: make religions coexist, eliminating none). Reality, however, disagrees with the concept of religious liberty/allowing religions to coexist, even if people claim to support it, because a government cannot remain neutral to morality; it will be imposing someone's morality over the other's, and it cannot be submitted under more than one.
Matthew 6:24 (NIV)
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
So, "religious liberty" is definitely not the philosophy of the Bible/reality. And anyone fighting to support the idea of "religious liberty" is lacking discernment; they are helping the kingdom of darkness. "Religious liberty" is one of those "calf idols" constructed by past generations. And that is why this nation is so deviated today. It entered into covenant with idolatry by deviating from God's Commands; we essentially can apply "free exercise of religion" to say, "welcome Zeus, Isis, Horus, Artemis, atheist philosophies, etc; we allow the worship of you here".
Exodus 23:32 (NIV)
32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods.
Exodus 23:33 (NIV)
33 Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you.”
Well, would you look at that—it happened just like God said would happen. The worship of their gods, their values, their false notions of morality, have become a snare for us because we allow them all in our land. God is glorified whether we heed, thus walk in, His Commands or disobey / ignore His Commands. But woe to us when He is glorified through our disobedience. He is always right. The consequences will happen as He said they would. People have not really repented if they continue dis-agreeing with the Father's Commands (which means they never truly accepted Christ who agreed with the Father). He is not going to act in our favour until true repentance happens. But knowing man's history, He'll have to make this nation suffer first under the rule of their gentile / uncircumcised-in-heart oppressors.
2 Chronicles 7:14 (NIV)
14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Psalm 106:35-42 (NIV)
35 but they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. 36 They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to false gods. 38 They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. 39 They defiled themselves by what they did; by their deeds they prostituted themselves.
40 Therefore the Lord was angry with his people and abhorred his inheritance. 41 He gave them into the hands of the nations, and their foes ruled over them. 42 Their enemies oppressed them and subjected them to their power.
Judges 3:8-10 (NIV)
8 The anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that he sold them into the hands of Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim,[a] to whom the Israelites were subject for eight years. 9 But when they cried out to the Lord, he raised up for them a deliverer, Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother, who saved them. 10 The Spirit of the Lord came on him, so that he became Israel’s judge[b] and went to war. The Lord gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him.
Footnotes:
a. Judges 3:8 That is, Northwest Mesopotamia b. Judges 3:10 Or leader
Very interesting... What are your thoughts about what Jesus said in;
Matthew 13:24-30 The Parable of the Weeds 24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Is He advocating that we don't exercise the full penalty of breaking the Law in uprooting the weeds? We get from Jesus explanation that the harvesters are the angels, but who are the servants? Am I right in thinking that's us?
Quote:
sounds nice without really thinking about what that looks like in practical terms: in order for "religious liberty" to exist, Christians must allow the religion of the secularists, a replacement of Christianity, to continue existing alongside them. That is what religious liberty claims to do (with their mouths only, of course, not in practice: make religions coexist, eliminating none). Reality, however, disagrees with the concept of religious liberty/allowing religions to coexist, even if people claim to support it, because a government cannot remain neutral to morality; it will be imposing someone's morality over the other's, and it cannot be submitted under more than one.
That is true, two antagonistic worldviews can't both co-exist peacefully and have equal say. One is going to have to have a tough time. Historically Christian growth - the times when Christianity has expanded most in terms of new believers has been times of massive persecution.
Perhaps making allowance for Christian failure in terms of foresight and sticking to a purely Biblical governing was a way for God to allow the weeds to grow alongside the wheat? The sifting seems to be His business and not ours?
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:42 am
edited: to correct typo's and mis-speaking + add a relevant study
Just for the record, I want to offer a clarification: after reading my reply over again, the following could be misconstrued, when I said, "Clearly, this includes defeating the man of lawlessness as well (who appears to be waging war against every other religion / thing called god too)."—I'm saying Jesus has to defeat him too, since he also is in opposition to Christ.
In reply to what you brought up (and I spent a few hours meditating over this):
Who are the "servants"?
Garland-Green
Very interesting... What are your thoughts about what Jesus said in;
Matthew 13:24-30 The Parable of the Weeds 24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Is He advocating that we don't exercise the full penalty of breaking the Law in uprooting the weeds? We get from Jesus explanation that the harvesters are the angels, but who are the servants? Am I right in thinking that's us?
Comparing it to Matthew 13:36-43, where Jesus explained the parable, and that all but the servants were identified, I can't definitively say who it is:
Matthew 13:36-43 (NIV)
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
The servants could be the disciples of Jesus (which would include us too). Just as possible, the servants could be the angels if the "full penalty" you are referring to is the "uprooting" of people, because this has involved the angels in the past:
Exodus 33:2 (NIV)
2 I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
Deuteronomy 28:63 (NIV)
63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.
God is the one uprooting the Canaanites for the Israelites, but He sent an angel to do it (but also humans involved too: the Israelites; not surprisingly, both angels and humans are servants of God):
Deuteronomy 9:5 (NIV)
5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Exodus 33:2 (NIV)
2 I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
In terms of "uprooting" then: there's God's involvement, angel involvement and obviously human involvement as well.
In contrast, the lake of fire as the "full penalty", there will definitely be no human involvement there (for no other reason than it being physically impossible for physical-bodied humans, but possible for God and the angels who are spirits, to throw souls into the Lake of fire).
Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 13:41-42 (NIV)
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
note: the Greek term for "hell" in Matthew 10:28 is "Gehenna" so it's talking about the lake of fire too.
So, fear Him who, after your body has been killed, has the power to throw both body and soul into hell (Gehenna; the lake of fire) and yet the angels are the ones casting people into the burning furnace (the lake of fire). In either case, both in the case of uprooting or casting into the lake of fire, there is angel involvement. I can't eliminate the angels being the servants conclusively.
All that to say, I don't know who to identify as "the servants" ultimately and concretely. It could be human just as much as the angels considering both angels and humans have been used in the past to "uproot" people. And just because the harvesters (who throw the weeds/the people of the evil one into the fire) are identified as angels, nothing prevents the servants (who were willing to do the uprooting before then) from being angels too. All that I can say definitively is that the extermination of the people of the evil one from the face of the earth has been delayed.
Though, having gone through all that, some human governments are still punishing criminals to death (capital punishment hasn't ceased—and people on death row can decide their own form of execution: electric chair, gas chamber, or lethal injection); so man's judgment of lawbreakers on earth is not what is being referred to here, as servants who do not uproot yet; these servants must be angels then idea). Even Gentile forms of government "bear the sword" to punish (Romans 13).
That said, as supporting evidence, the people of the kingdom are identified as the good seed (who grow up into wheat); the people of the evil one are identified as the weeds. Ergo, the human beings in the parable are the produce/crops/plants that are growing—be they wheat or weeds. So, further question to consider, are the servants also the good seed that is growing? Jesus' silence on the identity of the servants isn't helpful.
But whatever the case: that the servants allow the weeds (the people of the evil one) to continue living/breathing alongside us, is not the same thing as, "hey, righteous people, go protect the very existence of, and ability to practice, false religions/false worship/an act of wickedness in your land/on your territory".
Similarly,
Revelation 22:11 (NIV)
11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Not, "let the holy people make laws (and support laws) that cause idolatry". Sparing a pagan's physical life is supported by the parable if the servants are human agents in government, but even if the servants were human, that does not support the sparing of pagan religion/false notions of god/idols. We're going to continue breathing alongside each other on this planet, but in terms of what we support, those ideas cannot be contrary to God's Commands (which call for the elimination—not the preservation—of pagan religions / godless myths / the pagan's mystical and mythical thoughts; they are lies to be conquered by the truth; why is that limited to the common person and not the government?).
Christian Failure and Pure Biblical Governing
Garland-Green
cristobela
sounds nice without really thinking about what that looks like in practical terms: in order for "religious liberty" to exist, Christians must allow the religion of the secularists, a replacement of Christianity, to continue existing alongside them. That is what religious liberty claims to do (with their mouths only, of course, not in practice: make religions coexist, eliminating none). Reality, however, disagrees with the concept of religious liberty/allowing religions to coexist, even if people claim to support it, because a government cannot remain neutral to morality; it will be imposing someone's morality over the other's, and it cannot be submitted under more than one.
That is true, two antagonistic worldviews can't both co-exist peacefully and have equal say. One is going to have to have a tough time. Historically Christian growth - the times when Christianity has expanded most in terms of new believers has been times of massive persecution.
Perhaps making allowance for Christian failure in terms of foresight and sticking to a purely Biblical governing was a way for God to allow the weeds to grow alongside the wheat? The sifting seems to be His business and not ours?
If by "making allowance for Christian failure", you mean we fail to convert people, fail to conquer governments in gentile nations, and get persecuted instead, then I can agree with that. But if that's the case, then it doesn't seem like we're in power, governing (but that we're being chased and getting beaten down successfully. Hence "Christian failure" in the immediate [and I say, "in the immediate" because we're going to be resurrected back to life and inherit the earth, ergo the meek will inherit the earth, while the wicked inherit the lake of fire—in the long run]).
But you seem to be appealing to the "sifting that is God's business" to say that we're not to do the sifting (sorting out) that God requires us to do on earth (aside from the capital punishment, which I already covered, that is done by both a government submitted to YHWH's Law and a totally-gentile government submitted to other laws): He tells us, those who do not fall away, but stay loyal to Him and His Commands, to separate from the false "believers" (or get rid of those "believers" from amongst us) who won't give up their idolatry all while claiming to be Christian. That is also a sifting of sorts.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (NIV)
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[b]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 5:11 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13. b. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35. b. Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you c. Matthew 18:16 Deut. 19:15
Obviously what is God's jurisdiction, and not ours, is the killing off of the full-out pagans for their paganism (which is wicked [deviant from His Commands] in and of itself); they are not even on our promised land / our turf to be executed, but live outside of the set-apart community of YHWH [outside of the physical nation of Israel/the promised land and outside of the churches/synagogues across the world in Covenant with God]).
But are you suggesting that this [God kiling idolaters outside of the church] means the Church should involve itself in defending the existence of the pagans' religion / their idolatry in the gentile nation we live in? Our sparing the lives of the pagans outside of us is one thing (whom their own pagan governments kill off too for whatever they find sinful/unlawful, according to their lower standards; edit: I don't mean this condescendingly, but YHWH's ways are higher i.e. Isaiah 55:9), but defending their idolatry / idolatrous thoughts to exist in a country/place we have obtained ownership of is another.
Side note: I'm noticing that you're using the word "sifting" to refer to "separation"; but if so, there's also another kind of separation already happening before "end-time, planetary-wide harvest time" separation:
Jesus bringing a sword of separation amongst families:
Matthew 10:34-36 (NIV)
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 10:36 Micah 7:6
And, as far as the term "sifting" goes, the devil is also sifting us, testing our loyalty to God/Jesus:
Luke 22:31-32 (NIV)
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
So "sifting", in and of itself, is not limited to God.
And as far as separating us from idolaters, that is not something limited to just God. The angels and humans carry out that task too in their jurisdictions.
What I don't understand is how "purely Biblical governing" can be done in a gentile nation unless (A) the gentile people convert (thus become a part of Israel), or (B) God kills them off entirely ("them" being all those whose hearts are not circumcised to Him and His Commands alone). The latter—option B—however only happens when Jesus returns. Until then...the gentiles, pagans, and tax collectors are governing over us. Like the Israelites in Egypt (who are out in the world, but not of it). And if an Israelite/Christian is in a position of power in the gentile government, their Israelite/Christian identity is hidden / unknown, at first anyway, prior to gaining favour in the worldly kingdom (like Moses or Esther, or even Daniel), when implementing laws or making suggestions for what to do with the people of Israel / the people set-apart to the Most High God.
idea Thought idea: now that I'm thinking about Egypt though, if the people of the world are taking the "planned parenthood" route, doesn't that mean the idolaters are killing themselves off? one less child to be raised up in their paganism? While the Christians/Israelites who marry (thus don't have the gift of celibacy, nor live us eunuchs, but start families) and submit to YHWH's Commands (e.g. don't unlawfully kill their children, the scenarios that are unlawful according to God's Commands), become fruitful and multiply totally dwarfing the pagan population? Like what happened in Moses' day? to the point that they find us a threat, try to treat us overly-harsh [oppress us under harsh labor] as a form of "birth control", and when that fails, they end up having to kick us out / want us separated from them? and that's when we can become set-apart as a nation wholly submitted to God?
The sad thing is: Israel, as a physical nation on the map (the promised land) today, isn't even a refuge from gentile forms of government anymore the way it was designed to be because it's so compromised and deviant from YHWH's Commands now.
Ezekiel 20:24-25 (NIV)
24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their parents’ idols. 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live;
If Israel was this "safe haven" of, "only YHWH's Commands", I could see "pure Biblical governing" happening. The wicked are allowed to do whatever they want over there—out there—in the other nations, to their own detriment, while the Israelites [those who want to live submitted to YHWH according to His Commands] live over here as their own nation.
The fact that He's sending us out amongst the nations, however, to have people spared and reconciled to Him, if enough of them convert, are they suppose to submit the nation to YHWH? Otherwise, I don't see how "pure Biblical governing" is even possible right now. Sigh... and yet it's the only type of governing that is prosperous and guarding the well-being of creation in every way. Sigh... again. Israel, stop being worldly. emotion_0A0exclaim
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As I'm reading Ezekiel 20 over again (God handing them over to other laws and pagan ways, even handing them over to their idolatry, because they rejected Him and His Commands, and instead wanted to be like the world), I'm reminded of 1 Samuel 12:12-17 (when they asked for a human king / worldly forms of government as the solution to their problems, thinking their protection comes from whomever the human ruler above them is—and God calling His people evil for placing their trust in that).
1 Samuel 12:12-17 (NIV)
12 “But when you saw that Nahash king of the Ammonites was moving against you, you said to me, ‘No, we want a king to rule over us’—even though the Lord your God was your king. 13 Now here is the king you have chosen, the one you asked for; see, the Lord has set a king over you. 14 If you fear the Lord and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God—good! 15 But if you do not obey the Lord, and if you rebel against his commands, his hand will be against you, as it was against your ancestors.
16 “Now then, stand still and see this great thing the Lord is about to do before your eyes! 17 Is it not wheat harvest now? I will call on the Lord to send thunder and rain. And you will realize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the Lord when you asked for a king.”
Prior to that, they had God and His judge (Samuel) who submitted all things to God's Commands. The earthly king, whom the Israelites were asking for in place of YHWH and Samuel, would only be a solution/protection if the ruler submitted to YHWH's Commands (in addition to the people of the nation themselves submitting to YHWH's Commands as well). Otherwise, just like YHWH promised in His Commands, He would send attacks. There is no safety from God or government when we disobey (amongst those Commands is the prohibition against yoking ourselves to idolaters, against allowing the worship of other gods / godless myths, and freedom of speech, in our land; Gods Commands do not allow that [Exodus 22:28; Leviticus 24:10-16]).
Exodus 22:28 (NIV)
28 “Do not blaspheme God[a] or curse the ruler of your people.
Footnotes:
a. Exodus 22:28 Or Do not revile the judges
Leviticus 24:10-16 (NIV)
10 Now the son of an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father went out among the Israelites, and a fight broke out in the camp between him and an Israelite. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name with a curse; so they brought him to Moses. (His mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri the Danite.) 12 They put him in custody until the will of the Lord should be made clear to them.
13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.
By the way "blasphemy" apparently also includes an Israelite engaging in idolatry.
Ezekiel 20:27-29 (NIV)
27 “Therefore, son of man, speak to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In this also your ancestors blasphemed me by being unfaithful to me: 28 When I brought them into the land I had sworn to give them and they saw any high hill or any leafy tree, there they offered their sacrifices, made offerings that aroused my anger, presented their fragrant incense and poured out their drink offerings. 29 Then I said to them: What is this high place you go to?’” (It is called Bamah[a] to this day.)
Footnotes:
a. Ezekiel 20:29 Bamah means high place.
We blaspheme Him by doing so because we make it seem like YHWH is a useless God whose Commands are just as useless in solving our every problem.
Ultimately, getting reconciled to the Father through Christ, thus having a heart that submits to God / God's Commands is the solution. But of course the USA (which is anything but "united") is not doing that. Neither the people nor its elected leaders (current nor prospective leaders).
So, I guess I'm half-agreeing: "pure Biblical governing" should have been the ideal way to allow the wheat and tares (weeds) to grow alongside each other. But the fact that we're being sent out into the world to make converts means certain Israelites are not living in Israel (not just the individual who went out to carry out that task of reconciling people to their Creator [ergo apostles] but the gentile people are becoming Israelites before ever coming into Israel [thus living outside of Israel]—but the ultimate goal it seems is to get us back into Israel). I get the feeling that people were suppose to be sent out to the world to make converts, but not stay living there permanently, but come back to Israel and bring the gentiles with them (like Ruth and Rahab)...?
Ezekiel 47:22 (NIV)
22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.
Micah 4:2 (NIV)
2 Many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Zechariah 8:23 (NIV)
23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”
[note from cristobela: the bold in the following] Isaiah 56:1-8 (NIV)
56 This is what the Lord says:
“Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed. 2 Blessed is the one who does this— the person who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps their hands from doing any evil.” 3 Let no foreigner who is bound to the Lord say, “The Lord will surely exclude me from his people.” And let no eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.” 4 For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant— 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant— 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.” 8 The Sovereign Lord declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: “I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered.”
Isaiah 14:1 (NIV)
14 The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the descendants of Jacob.
But not just that, I'm getting the sense that every other government has to be destroyed, replaced by God's Commands and submitted to Jesus (like I illustrated with my first reply). And that converts will desire to and/or will be obligated to go to Israel. Both clearly will happen (considering that in [Zechariah 14:16-21] foreign nations are being threatened that they have to go up to Jerusalem every year to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles or else they get no rain—every year suggests not everyone is moving there, but living elsewhere, hence the yearly trek). But that seems to be at a time when YHWH has defeated all the other nations who came to fight against Jerusalem, as the rest of Zechariah 14 describes. I would not move to physical nation of Israel until it is devoid of all its deviation from God's Commands. Otherwise, a deviated Israel is no different than the gentile nations we're currently living in, who also compromise YHWH's truth with pagan thought—if not worse, because Israel who received the Commands of God, and thus received a superior form of government, are turning their backs on the sacred Commands, unlike the gentiles who are just ignorant/unaware.
edit: also I'll link to this study, for whoever is reading, that is relevant to identifying the things this nation has to repent of [Idolatry].
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