|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:13 pm
 |
|
|
|
edited They shouldn't be surprised that mercy and forgiveness is the preferred method of how to deal with transgression instead of prosecution/execution of justice—regardless of a person's sex, regardless of their particular sin.
Luke 6:36 (NIV)
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Matthew 6:14-15 (NIV)
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
So, if you want to be ruthlessly harsh to others and be trigger-happy with punishment, without giving the person chance to repent and be sorry for what they did, then you'll receive the same in return in another area where you have transgressed against someone in the same way in spirit.
But by all means separate from the unrepentant transgressors:
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
b. Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you
c. Matthew 18:16 Deut. 19:15
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (NIV)
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[b]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 5:11 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.
b. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7
edit: also: we are suppose to care about not making anyone stumble, especially our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ; and no, that doesn't excuse their personal responsibility to guard themselves against sinning.
Don't make others stumble:
Matthew 18:6-7 (NIV)
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
Guard yourself against stumbling blocks through self-discipline/mastery of your own body:
Matthew 18:6-8 (NIV)
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:22 pm
|
|
|
 |
cristobela edited They shouldn't be surprised that mercy and forgiveness is the preferred method of how to deal with transgression instead of prosecution/execution of justice—regardless of a person's sex, regardless of their particular sin.
Luke 6:36 (NIV)
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Matthew 6:14-15 (NIV)
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
So, if you want to be ruthlessly harsh to others and be trigger-happy with punishment, without giving the person chance to repent and be sorry for what they did, then you'll receive the same in return in another area where you have transgressed against someone in the same way in spirit.
But by all means separate from the unrepentant transgressors:
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
b. Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you
c. Matthew 18:16 Deut. 19:15
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (NIV)
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[b]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 5:11 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.
b. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7
edit: also: we are suppose to care about not making anyone stumble, especially our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ; and no, that doesn't excuse their personal responsibility to guard themselves against sinning.
Don't make others stumble:
Matthew 18:6-7 (NIV)
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
Guard yourself against stumbling blocks through self-discipline/mastery of your own body:
Matthew 18:6-8 (NIV)
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
From what I gather there is something missing with these transgressors. They ask forgiveness of the church - but they don't attempt to do so to their victims. They admit mistake publicly to the congregation, but they don't humble themselves and to the same thing in personal to their victims. There is something lacking that will be a hindrance to healing and for the victim to be able to trust both their elders and their church to be for them if something similar should happen again.
"When I went to my church leaders for help the discouraged me from going to the police & encouraged me to give him another chance."
The church leaders here for example are not doing what they are supposed to. They are not confronting the transgressor and encouraging him to follow the law of the land but attempting to smooth things over. The person should admit his crime to the proper authorities. Take his punishment. It shows that there's actual repentance, not just an attempt to get away from responsibility. Something criminal has happened and it is in the church's best interest to not smooth such things over. Being forgiven of God doesn't mean that things should no longer have legal repercussions. That things should not be attempted to be set straight with the victim of this crime. They ought to, even in church to discourage this kind of behavior and promote justice. It restrains evil when evil has a negative consequence to the one who committed it. It is damaging to the church to keep things quite for the sake of the peace, or for the sake of reputation.
"My first of three experiences with sexual harassment in the church was at 14 years old. My youth pastor pulled me aside to tell me not to wear sandals to church. He told me he had a foot fetish and my feet were turning him on. I was causing him to sin."
These people are not in a place where they should be ministering to anyone. They ought to be stepping down. They are anything but above reproach.
Titus 1:5-9
This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
I feel upset and angry that there is so much of this in church because the church is not just a social club. It represents something else than just itself. The church is supposed to be different than the world. No one can say that because their eye tempted them they are fine to respond to that temptation. That is not a Biblical excuse for sin. I can't help but feel that if we cracked down harder on this kind of thing in church that it would be much less common and that we would have a healthier church.
.
I have a family member who have sexually abused people. This person is now a Christian and believes that since everything is forgiven by God no attempt at reconciliation or plea for forgiveness need to be extended to the person victimized. It is not Christian to be too proud to say you need a persons forgiveness, and you are continuing the harm that was inflicted on the person by refusing to admit it to the person that you wrong them. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:28 pm
|
|
|
|
Garland-Green cristobela edited They shouldn't be surprised that mercy and forgiveness is the preferred method of how to deal with transgression instead of prosecution/execution of justice—regardless of a person's sex, regardless of their particular sin.
Luke 6:36 (NIV)
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Matthew 6:14-15 (NIV)
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
So, if you want to be ruthlessly harsh to others and be trigger-happy with punishment, without giving the person chance to repent and be sorry for what they did, then you'll receive the same in return in another area where you have transgressed against someone in the same way in spirit.
But by all means separate from the unrepentant transgressors:
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
b. Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you
c. Matthew 18:16 Deut. 19:15
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 (NIV)
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[b]
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 5:11 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.
b. 1 Corinthians 5:13 Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7
edit: also: we are suppose to care about not making anyone stumble, especially our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ; and no, that doesn't excuse their personal responsibility to guard themselves against sinning.
Don't make others stumble:
Matthew 18:6-7 (NIV)
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
Guard yourself against stumbling blocks through self-discipline/mastery of your own body:
Matthew 18:6-8 (NIV)
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
From what I gather there is something missing with these transgressors. They ask forgiveness of the church - but they don't attempt to do so to their victims. They admit mistake publicly to the congregation, but they don't humble themselves and to the same thing in personal to their victims. There is something lacking that will be a hindrance to healing and for the victim to be able to trust both their elders and their church to be for them if something similar should happen again. "When I went to my church leaders for help the discouraged me from going to the police & encouraged me to give him another chance." The church leaders here for example are not doing what they are supposed to. They are not confronting the transgressor and encouraging him to follow the law of the land but attempting to smooth things over. The person should admit his crime to the proper authorities. Take his punishment. It shows that there's actual repentance, not just an attempt to get away from responsibility. Something criminal has happened and it is in the church's best interest to not smooth such things over. Being forgiven of God doesn't mean that things should no longer have legal repercussions. That things should not be attempted to be set straight with the victim of this crime. They ought to, even in church to discourage this kind of behavior and promote justice. It restrains evil when evil has a negative consequence to the one who committed it. It is damaging to the church to keep things quite for the sake of the peace, or for the sake of reputation. "My first of three experiences with sexual harassment in the church was at 14 years old. My youth pastor pulled me aside to tell me not to wear sandals to church. He told me he had a foot fetish and my feet were turning him on. I was causing him to sin." These people are not in a place where they should be ministering to anyone. They ought to be stepping down. They are anything but above reproach. Titus 1:5-9 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. I feel upset and angry that there is so much of this in church because the church is not just a social club. It represents something else than just itself. The church is supposed to be different than the world. No one can say that because their eye tempted them they are fine to respond to that temptation. That is not a Biblical excuse for sin. I can't help but feel that if we cracked down harder on this kind of thing in church that it would be much less common and that we would have a healthier church. . I have a family member who have sexually abused people. This person is now a Christian and believes that since everything is forgiven by God no attempt at reconciliation or plea for forgiveness need to be extended to the person victimized. It is not Christian to be too proud to say you need a persons forgiveness, and you are continuing the harm that was inflicted on the person by refusing to admit it to the person that you wrong them.
Although, yes, they should seek forgiveness against the brother or sister they wronged and be reconciled (sincerely) with the victim...
Matthew 5:23-24 (NIV)
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
...it isn't Scripturally-honest to say that once this transgressor has repented and reconciled sincerely (including with the victim, not just God), that the proper thing is to take them to secular courts. That's overkill (comparable to YHWH sending someone off into exile/handing them off to the world for judgment, after having been punished by the Sanhedrin for that sin, or after matters have been genuinely resolved/reconciled between perpetrator and victim). There's no need.
The whole point of church discipline amongst ourselves is to avoid the secular courts/judgment at the hands of the world and/or at the hands of the prince of the world (Satan), who are unfair and ruthless at times; in contrast, YHWH's judgment is better, truly just and merciful; so if we cannot even settle sins/transgressions of the Law amongst ourselves (and I don't mean sweep them under the rug, but actually deal with them [either through punishment or through fostering reconciliation]), if we're not able to do that properly, but have to depend on (or resort to as first resort) secular courts to solve our problems, then our (and Christ's/YHWH's) reputation gets ruined at that point—just as much as ignoring/sweeping their sins under the rug, consciences are still violated not relieved, and consequently we are not dealing with the sin / lawless behavior / crime sufficiently at all.
Like the gentiles in Corinth (dealing with sexual sins / sex crimes included):
1 Corinthians 6:1-7 (NIV)
6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?
1 Corinthians 5:1 (NIV)
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.
Paul says they should be judging these matters, not the secular courts. But if the transgressor refuses the judgment/correction/discipline within the church (all three levels), sure, then take them to secular courts / hand them over to the world and the prince of this world, what I believe "treat them as a pagan and tax collector" would entail. Secular courts are not how we repent, but the punishment for refusing to repent, refusing correction and proper, sincere reconciliation. We should neither be bypassing the judgment of the church and going directly secular, nor after church punishment, then also taking it to secular courts. That would be overkill/over-punishment. It's only if/when reconciliation and church discipline fails or is rejected that we should involve secular courts.
---
That said, within church judgment: the amount of mercy offered to the transgressor varies depending on the amount of mercy that the victim (or the victim's family, if the victim doesn't survive) wants to give—even when sexual sin is involved (of which there is Biblical precedent): for instance, adultery is a crime / a sin / a transgression of the Law that is worthy of death (adultery was even a crime in secular law / law of the land in South Korea until recent years [link] 2015, though not punished with death when it was a crime in their government; btw, this perceived difference between "sin" and "crime" is non-existent, sin is a crime as defined by God), and yet, despite adultery being a crime (a sex crime at that), a crime against humanity that deserves death/you forfeit your life for behaving this way, we also see that adultery can lawfully be met with divorce in the courts (even in YHWH's Law), not just the route of the offending spouse being handed off to the courts for execution.
Leviticus 20:10 (NIV)
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
Matthew 19:9 (NIV)
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Deuteronomy 24:1 (NIV)
24 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,
The "something indecent" that is ground for divorce, as Jesus defines, includes adultery or sexual immorality of any kind. So choose: have the adultering spouse stoned to death, or be merciful and divorce your adultering spouse (which allows for reconciliation afterward)? or like Hosea, do nothing but take the adultering spouse back?
Hosea 3:1 (NIV)
3 The Lord said to me, “Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another man and is an adulteress. Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes.”
Though I'm not sure if Hosea divorced Gomer and is merely taking her back after the divorce (it could be; we're not released from marriage in God's eyes unless the spouse dies, even if we're divorced on paper, so she'd still be committing adultery despite a divorce from Hosea for joining herself to another while Hosea lives):
Romans 7:2-3 (NIV)
2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
All that to say: there are extra layers of mercy available for the believer if the victim is a fellow believer and should know God's heart that He prefers mercy over judgment.
Matthew 9:13 (NIV)
13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Footnotes:
Matthew 9:13 Hosea 6:6
Adultery—like rape against someone who is already married/betrothed—merits death. They are crimes of the highest degree (and here specifically sex crimes). They don't lawfully deserve mercy, but the perpetrator can be shown mercy by the victim (whether by divorcing the adulterer, or reconciling with your spouse not staying divorced/not divorcing period [just leaving the judgment in God's hands if they don't repent]), or in the case of rape, even marrying the rapist if the victim is single, actually likes them back, the father approves of their marriage [and the rapist pays the bride price]; I do believe the text allows for rape, not just seduction, of a single person to be met with mercy). If mercy is (and lawfully can be) extended by the victim towards the offending transgressor for these sex crimes, even under YHWH's Law, then how much more when believers are in gentile nations (who are suppose to be submitting to YHWH's Ways above the world's ways even if they're in Babylon)? Our levels of mercy are higher, just like our levels of judgment are higher for they penetrate to the thoughts of the heart as well (conspiracy to commit murder makes you subject to the courts, just as much as the one who shed someone's blood lawlessly and is physically a murderer).
Of course, if the sinner/the transgressor/ the criminal/the law-breaker is not truly repentant nor seeking to reconcile, then yes, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector—take them to secular courts of this world (or hand them over to Satan the prince of this world). The victim doesn't HAVE TO show mercy, they can just as legitimately pursue judgment, but they can (and should be encouraged to) show mercy if they're in Christ/sincerely in YHWH in Spirit and in Truth. Mercy is not the part that's wrong in this story, but, as you were hashing out, the lack of church discipline (and even handing over to secularism, like pagans and tax collectors, if church discipline fails). The solution is not to involve secular courts if/when they can be disciplined inside the church though.
Similarly with theft: theft is also a crime (a sin, a transgression of the law—both of the law of the land and the Law of God), and yet:
Matthew 5:25-26 (NIV)
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Whether direct theft (taking something that belongs to another without legitimate/lawful permission to do so) or being in debt and not paying back (also theft), thus a sin / a crime / breaking the law, Jesus advises that we settle out of court and reconcile with the one we owe/wronged so that we don't go to court.
Ergo, why Jesus taught us to pray, "forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors"—forgive people who owe us and have wronged us. We can choose to "crack down" harder when we're wronged, but if/when we do so, we should fully expect God to "crack down" harder on us in return in areas we have transgressed in the same manner against another/even against Him only (who is also another) because mercy was an option for us, but we didn't take it [especially when they want to reconcile]; whether the "crack down" is deserved or not, even when being harsher is the best course of action all elements of the circumstance considered, still: by choosing to judge harshly instead of show mercy, then, according to God's Divine Law, you're opening yourself up for Him to bring harsher judgment on you in the same area in your life. He has to if He's being fair; when there is something in you that is unjust in the same way, He will punish it). How many people violate consent, even violate another person's eyes (sexually or otherwise) without their consent or even against their consent? How many introspect if this is why their consent was violated in the first place (I refuse to be politically-correct about this, I don't care, it's the truth: God returns our own behavior back onto our own heads—not saying every situation is this e.g. righteous suffering, like Job and Jesus, but we cannot dismiss that...).
Obadiah 1:15 (NIV)
15 “The day of the Lord is near
for all nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you;
your deeds will return upon your own head.
When I was lost in the world, the kind of lechery that would come out of my mouth with sexual innuendo, that people around me didn't necessarily want to hear (though I didn't know I was violating them), was returned to me by God through a teacher who, despite what I wanted / did not want, would try to pry into my mind against my will/get to know me without my consent, saying he was studying/analyzing me (disturbing). In spirit, it's the same thing that I would do to other people by making them hear things and envision things they didn't necessarily want to hear or envision. Consent violated. Disturbed.
People don't think of it on this level, but many times we have violated someone's consent way before anyone violated ours (even their eyes and ears, even when not physically penetrating anything on their body, but just by how we speak, dress, or expose our body). I can't speak for others, I can only speak for myself: that's exactly what happened to me as an ignorant gentile. And I 100% agree with the judgment God dealt back to me, in retrospect, now that I have wisdom and am not stumbling around in the dark, but have discernment. God will judge us back with the same measure we use in all things, including in our judgment of others.
So, it's better to choose mercy against those who do wrong against us (and who want to reconcile), if we don't want that harsh judgment coming upon us (from God) in the same area we are equally still guilty in (knowingly or not). Not to mention, it is better to be wronged. Nothing can be held against you (neither from the govt. nor from God) for being a victim who wrongs no one, but something can be held against us (even if not by the Gentiles, then by God), if we over-punish something, desire to see something punished, and don't show sufficient mercy to those who transgress against us (which is just as bad as not punishing sin at all when all mercy/opportunities to repent and reconcile have been used up; that, when all mercy is exhausted, would be the time to involve the law of the land, like the drunkard, rebellious son who refuses correction time and time again).
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (NIV)
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Matthew 15:3-9 (NIV)
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16
b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9
c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
But again, don't over-punish:
James 1:20-21 (NIV)
20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
Deuteronomy 25:2-3 (NIV)
2 If the guilty person deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make them lie down and have them flogged in his presence with the number of lashes the crime deserves, 3 but the judge must not impose more than forty lashes. If the guilty party is flogged more than that, your fellow Israelite will be degraded in your eyes.
It's better to err on the side of mercy than over-punish, ergo the 40 lashes minus one.
2 Corinthians 11:24 (NIV)
24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
Though Paul's judgment was undeserved (I presume), and this is an example of righteous suffering, like Christ's.
My point here though is: all mercy (and correction) amongst ourselves as believers should be exhausted before the courts/law of the land is invoked.
---
Agreed that people without self-control shouldn't be in positions of leadership in the church where they'll be taking advantage of women (or men) in the church, seducing them, or being tempted into sin because of it without self-control. And they should step down or be removed, publicly shamed / corrected by the church as a leader (and seek forgiveness from the one they wronged as addressed earlier).
1 Timothy 5:20 (NIV)
20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.
Largely, the problem in all this is the execution of proper church discipline, fully submitted to what Jesus says, and to avoid being lawless, in both extremes—lawless for failing to show mercy as the Law allows (John 8:1-11) especially when you're aiding/abetting the sin, and/or lawless for not punishing at times when we should (and expected by Jesus to not show mercy, but at that point because all mercy has been exhausted, prosecute [Matthew 15:1-9;Matthew 18:15-17]) and hand them over to the courts / judgment in the world at that point.
But I'm mostly going through this to highlight that judgment by the law of the land is not repentance, but punishment for refusing to repent. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
