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 Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:29 pm
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I have like five things in mind to share (two things to add from Scripture, one to correct in the blog post itself, two in response to a commenter on the page):
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[1] Sometimes, He also gives you what you didn't ask for, but needed, even if you don't trust Him or call out to Him.
Matthew 5:45 (NIV)
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Isaiah 65:1 (NIV)
65 “I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’
It depends on what YHWH wants to achieve or demonstrate. In either case, that's also not magic, but a sentient mind apart from yours and doing what He wants, at times even despite what you wanted. And as it relates to YHWH, reaching out to you, caring for you and wanting to be known by you.
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[2] If it's magic (thus, the imposition of your own will, in contradiction to the Creator's/in contradiction to what YHWH reveals He desires to be done, thus not in accord with His mind / His will), and is also the kind empowered by spirits, then the spirit is demonic (even if they revealed a truthful answer, and know who Jesus/YHWH is).
Mark 3:11 (NIV)
11 Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”
Acts 16:16-18 (NIV)
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
So, just like demons—even if they arrive at or help you arrive at a correct conclusion—they don't want to be reigned by YHWH as King either. They chose Satan and his ways (do whatever you want regardless of what our Creator said).
e.g.
YHWH prohibits illicit acts of contact with spirits, including demonic spirits (who break the Law of God / inspire you to break the Creator's instructions that are there for our own good so that we don't die) besides Adam and Eve in the garden, practices like sorcery (potion-making/poison in YHWH's eyes/pharmakeia with their unclean ingredients that hurt your body, don't really heal), mediumship/spiritists (trying to seek advice/contact from the dead, you don't know what spirit you're conjuring up, instead of consulting the Living God by Name, who is the Spirit of Truth, not a deceiving spirit), etc, ...if not defiling to your mind and your body, the practices are just plain useless/worthless, if not misleading or unreliable in some way. Thus why it's illegal/unlawful/sin in YHWH's eyes.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (NIV)
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.
Leviticus 19:31 (NIV)
31 “‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.
Isaiah 8:19 (NIV)
19 When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Jeremiah 16:19 (NIV)
19 Lord, my strength and my fortress,
my refuge in time of distress,
to you the nations will come
from the ends of the earth and say,
“Our ancestors possessed nothing but false gods,
worthless idols that did them no good.
1 Corinthians 10:19-22 (NIV)
19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
So, more fully, whether invoking the supernatural or not, magic is following your own will = rebellion against YHWH's will—whether human rebellion to YHWH or other spirits in rebellion to YHWH.
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[3]
The correction: in light of Scripture, we can't say that what separates "magic" from "Scriptural prayer / or any concept in Scripture (any obedient use of [and relation to] the supernatural that YHWH's Commands allow)", is that we don't demand "the gods" ever—considering the gods of the pagans and how we relate to them...
Thus the examples where the disciples didn't ask God for something...the disciples were just directly speaking to a situation. Sure, some demons don't come out unless prayer and fasting are involved, but other demons? Yeah, they merely demanded that they (the pagan gods) get out. By coercion, compelled out—by force.
Matthew 17:18-21 (NIV)
18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”
20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” [21] [a]
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 17:21 Some manuscripts include here words similar to Mark 9:29.
Mark 9:29 (NIV)
29 He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer.[a]”
Footnotes:
a. Mark 9:29 Some manuscripts prayer and fasting
Deuteronomy 32:17 (KJV)
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
Leviticus 17:7 (NIV)
7 They must no longer offer any of their sacrifices to the goat idols[a] to whom they prostitute themselves. This is to be a lasting ordinance for them and for the generations to come.’
Footnotes:
Leviticus 17:7 Or the demons
1 Corinthians 10:19-22 (NIV)
19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?.
Mark 9:38 (NIV)
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
Not ask YHWH beforehand to cast those "gods" out. But, even in this case, still: it should be in line with what YHWH already revealed that He wants to achieve. In alignment with His mind. In accord with His Commands. His will. What He already authorized / gave you authority to do. You're not seeking to establish your own thing contrary to what He says (or in place of what He said) like some demon and those who follow in their rebellious ways/nature.
So not, "never coercing the gods" (demons), the real difference between magicians vs. YHWH's followers: who are you in agreement with? the demons or YHWH? whatever you're thinking, doing, speaking, asking and yes even commanding/demanding/coercing, is it in agreement with the Creator or not? who is empowering you to achieve it? and who gave you that authority? the Most High God, Father of spirits, Creator, YHWH? or some other spirit, a rebellious creation, in disagreement with Him?
Related: is it really a human in control of the demonic spirit? the pagan gods? ever? or the other way around? The human is the pitiful, clay vessel that gets possessed, haunted, plagued by the spirits that they openly invite (or by default, by who they reject, invite into/have in their life, in whose jurisdiction they're in/under—the prince of the power of the air/the prince of this world, not YHWH). They're ruling over humans, not we them; the other spirits are still stronger than us outside of Jesus (the authority He gives us over them).
I don't like how people frame the argument sometimes because it doesn't put things into proper perspective: celestial beings—even demons—are stronger than us (earthly). Even when invoking demonic aid, human beings are not really controlling them. The demons are stronger than the human beings and not impeded by the physical like we are.
Ephesians 6:12 (NIV)
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Ephesians 2:2 (KJV)
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Mark 5:1-5 (NIV)
5 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
Footnotes:
a. Mark 5:1 Some manuscripts Gadarenes; other manuscripts Gergesenes
Acts 19:13-17 (NIV)
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
17 When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor.
It's only because of the Holy Spirit of YHWH/Jesus coming to dwell within a person that said person doesn't succumb to whatever these malicious spirits want to do with our bodies. They're the ones in power. The fact that this spirit knew about Paul means he either got exorcised by Paul already and inhabited someone else (the current human vessel in Acts 19) or knows a demon who did.
Luke 11:24-26 (NIV)
24 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ 25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.”
Whatever the case: We're not really the ones in control of spirits. And once they're done using you, out of fun, or get bored, even if they enable you to have psychic abilities, there's no guarantee that they will stay tame or that you'll have self-control over your mind and body by the end. And they're never seeking your good even if they give you what you ask for.
The only one who comes to dwell inside of you to give you a sound mind is the Holy Spirit (the Creator), whom we rightfully belong to.
2 Timothy 1:7 (KJV)
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
And tells us no to the things we ask for if it's not for our good. Like a good father should.
James 4:3 (NIV)
3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
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In case anyone gets tripped up by what Bernie Dehler posed (the last two comments in that blog entry's comment section [as of my typing this]): I posted the following in response to him, but my replies won't be published unless approved, so no one will see this if they visit the page right now. However, since you linked to the page and people might read it, as a guard against those unclean thoughts, I'll share the answer below:
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[4]
Bernie Dehler 2:19 PM
The Catholic faith is the largest Christian denomination by far. And here's a perfect example of God's magic: The Priest says an incantation and the wafer turns into the body of Jesus, LITERALLY. Or so they say. It looks the same, but they say it is now Jesus even though it doesn't look like it. It takes magical thinking to believe this.
My comment:
Your point was indirectly addressed by his passing comments above: he expressed agreement with a fellow commenter that the prosperity gospel (a belief/theology which exists amongst professing Christians) is not authentic to the concepts as they are found and meant in the Bible, but are actually magic, not representative of how Christ/YHWH applied a concept. Likewise, there are things the Catholic church does in disregard of what the Bible says. Just because they identify as Christians doesn't make their practice authentically so. For example, drinking / eating literal blood is prohibited (Acts 15:20). So, for them to suggest that the grape wine literally turns into blood and and the unleavened bread into literal human flesh is a misrepresentation of what the totality of Scripture is conveying. Along the same vein, the continued identification of literal unclean animals as unclean in the vision Jesus sent to John (Revelation 18:2), who are coming to feast on the decomposing bodies of the dead, should keep one from misinterpreting the symbolic application of an unclean animal to the Gentile individuals / individuals from other nations besides Israel in Peter's vision. Converted gentiles who come to Christ / YHWH-incarnate have been cleansed of their unclean natures, but the literal animal has not. Thus why it continues to serve as a symbol of uncleanness all the way in the Book of Revelation because it persists in its unclean practices/nature. The totality of Scripture must be considered as a whole or we wind up at erroneous interpretations, even in Christ's Name. Not everything is food for man: blood and human flesh, literally, are not mankind's food. So, yes, the unleavened bread and grape wine remains unleavened bread and grape wine. Just because it calls itself Christian doesn't mean it's whole/complete/sound doctrine authentically representative of what the Bible conveys from Genesis to Revelation. Demonic doctrine, teaching that denies what the Father says, is also warned about in the Scriptures. And those ideas can creep in under any denomination. Believe the Bible's claims, not a particular sect's claims.
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[5]
Bernie Dehler 2:20 PM
Lenny wrote in the article: "In fact, the very idea of magic is antithetical to Christian theology."
Yet you believe God created humans by magic rather than common descent (evolution).
My Comment:
Correction: God created humans supernaturally (beyond the natural; a force outside of space, time, matter commanding).
On a similar note, if we're being true to the text, God commanded the land to bring forth animals.
Genesis 1:24 (NIV)
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
And that doesn't require common descent. Considering that one kind doesn't turn into another, they arose independently.
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Whether it's the believer erring or an unbeliever erring, this is present: man's own [fallen creations' own] ideas / theorizing ignoring the full scope of what YHWH revealed.
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