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What if Jesus meant every word He said? 

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Garland-Green

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:40 pm
Questions and observations concerning the book can be made here.
Anything relevant to the content, comparison between books that are canon and this book can also be discussed here.

Content
Problems with the Book of Enoch


More about the Book of Enoch


Comparison to canonized books  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:33 am
Claim one, from gotquestion.org: The Book of Enoch is any of several pseudepigraphal (falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded) works that attribute themselves to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah; that is, Enoch son of Jared (Genesis 5:18.). (Source)

Possible answer
So the claim here is that it is written after the fact. Meaning that it was not the person who's name is attributed to the book that penned it. It doesn't necessarily follow that just because we have a version or possibly a copy dated to a particular point because of writing style and the use of certain types of materials that there were no previously existing versions in circulation. Writing style can be attributed to a scribe penning it from a different language than what the original text was written in. It could also be that the story was transmitted orally up to this point or that whatever materials it was written on has perished with time or simply is waiting somewhere in the dust to be found. There are books in the Bible written in such a way that they should be easy to remember and recite.We see that when New Testament writers make use of Old Testament quotes. These were used because they were present in the collective mind of the Israelites through recitation. We can not simply state that it is pseudepigraphal because of dating of the current copy. We would have to look at the content and what the content is telling us to make a more informed decision of its authorship.  

Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian


Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:59 am
Claim two, from https://jesusalive.cc/
P.S. Also, keep in mind that if Enoch had written the BoE, Noah would have to have taken it on the Ark.

Possible answer
Also not an issue in itself. He could have brought it on the Ark, or he could have memorized the book in its entirety. Don't believe people could memorize such a long text? Examples;

Has anyone memorized the whole Bible?
Imprisoned Chinese Christians Memorize Entire Bible: 'They Can’t Take What’s Hidden in Your Heart'  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:13 am
Claim three, from https://jesusalive.cc
(Enoch 106:1-3, 11;12) says that the moment Noah was born, he "opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord."


Possible answer
Not an impossibility. By reason many things that are described in the Bible seems impossible to us. Talking snakes, talking donkeys to mention a few. However what is impossible to us is not impossible to God. I would not say a talking baby is enough to say a book is uninspired.  

Garland-Green

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Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:18 am
Claim four; from https://jesusalive.cc
(Enoch 33:3) indicates that Enoch counted every star.


Possible answer
I could not find this in the text;

Chapter 33
3. I saw there heavenly gates opening into heaven; three of them distinctly separated. The northern winds proceeded from them, blowing cold, hail, frost, snow, dew, and rain.

Could be the person making this list misread the number or misread the text. I give him the benefit of the doubt.  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:34 am
Claim five; from https://jesusalive.cc
(Enoch 69:8-9) says an angel named Penemue taught men wisdom, and how to write with ink and paper.


Possible answer
What the verses say.
Chapter 69
8. And the name of the fourth is Penemue; this one showed the sons of men the bitter and the sweet and showed them all the secrets of their wisdom.

9. He taught men the art of writing with ink and paper, and through this many have gone astray, from eternity to eternity, and to this day.

The angel showed the sons of men their wisdom. Not Gods wisdom. This really doesn't contradict the canonical texts as they make no mention of who taught men to write. You can't argue though that many have not gone astray from "wisdom" found in many books written throughout time. Everything from religious books such as the Quran, Mahabharata and the Talmud . Books with a large secular impact like the On the origin of species,Mao's Little Red Book and Mein Kampf. Just to mention a few. There are countless other less famous books making untrue claims that effect peoples understanding and behaviors to varying extent.  

Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian


Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:03 am
Claim six; from https://jesusalive.cc
Based upon dating in the Bible, Enoch could not have been on Earth when Noah was born (Noah would have been his great-grandson). Enoch had his son Methuselah when he was 65 years (Gen 5:21). Enoch lived to be 365 years old when God took him to Heaven (Gen 5:21-22)(Heb 11:5). Methuselah was 187 years old when he had his son Lamech (Gen 5:25). Lamech was 182 years old when he had his son Noah (Gen 5:28-29). Putting these together, Enoch was 65 when Methuselah was born, 252 when Lamech was born, and would have been 434 when Noah was born. Enoch was on Earth for 365 years. He had been gone for 69 years when Noah was born!

Possible answer
This claim seems to be true as fare as I can tell. The consequences of a claim like this being true is of course that the text is not inspired. Unless there is a scribal error at work. We don't really know but it certainly makes one question the validity of the text as something to be taken as Gods word. Seems as though this could have been reason enough to leave The Book of Enoch out of the collection of books we call The Bible. Since we have no other manuscripts of The Book of Enoch we can't really see either whether this is a mistake in one or all manuscripts.  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:14 pm
Claim seven; (Enoch 2:3) speaks of "rain," when it had not "rained" before the flood (when Enoch lived), and no one even knew what "rain" was (see: Q: #44.).

Book of Enoch 2:20-23
20 And the spirit of the dew has its dwelling at the ends of the heaven, and is connected with the chambers of the rain, and its course is in winter and summer: and its clouds and the clouds of the 21 mist are connected, and the one gives to the other. And when the spirit of the rain goes forth from its chamber, the angels come and open the chamber and lead it out, and when it is diffused over the whole earth it unites with the water on the earth. And whensoever it unites with the water on 22 the earth . . . For the waters are for those who dwell on the earth; for they are nourishment for the earth from the Most High who is in heaven: therefore there is a measure for the rain, 22, and the angels take it in charge. And these things I saw towards the Garden of the Righteous. 23 And the angel of peace who was with me said to me: ' These two monsters, prepared conformably to the greatness of God, shall feed . .

This is most certainly a problem for the book. In Genesis we never read about rain until the flood. We are told that there is a mist coming out of the ground to water the grass and plants.

Genesis 2:5-6
Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, but streams (b) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

b: Genesis 2:6 Or mist

Only possible answer I see could be that it is talking about future events but the text as far as I can see is not clear on this. It seems as if it is talking about a present occurrence. Meaning something that is happening as it is described.  

Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian


Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:37 am
[Chapter 38]

The first Parable

When the congregation of the righteous shall appear,
And sinners shall be judged for their sins,
And shall be driven from the face of the earth:

2 And when the Righteous One shall appear before the eyes of the righteous,
Whose elect works hang upon the Lord of Spirits,
And light shall appear to the righteous and the elect who dwell on the earth,

Where then will be the dwelling of the sinners,

And where the resting-place of those who have denied the Lord of Spirits?
It had been good for them if they had not been born.

3 When the secrets of the righteous shall be revealed and the sinners judged,
And the godless driven from the presence of the righteous and elect,
4 From that time those that possess the earth shall no longer be powerful and exalted:
And they shall not be able to behold the face of the holy,
For the Lord of Spirits has caused His light to appear
On the face of the holy, righteous, and elect.

5 Then shall the kings and the mighty perish
And be given into the hands of the righteous and holy.
6 And thenceforward none shall seek for themselves mercy from the Lord of Spirits
For their life is at an end.


Comment: Chapter 38 mentions that the righteous will come back to judge sinners along with God's Righteous One. Also that it would have been better for sinners to not have been born.

"And they shall not be able to behold the face of the holy,"

This is very much in accord with what the Bible has to say.

Matthew 18:7
Woe to the world for the causes of sin. These stumbling blocks must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

Matthew 12:36-37
But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Revelation 20:11-15
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

1 Corinthians 6:2
Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Jesus also said of Judas in Matthew 26: 24; The Son of Man will go just as it is written about Him, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed. It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Could refusing to confess Christ be such a betrayal worthy of a punishment so severe?

Matthew 10:32.34
Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven. Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Matthew seems to think so.  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:24 pm
[Chapter 39]

5 Here mine eyes saw their dwellings with His righteous angels,
And their resting-places with the holy.

And they petitioned and interceded and prayed for the children of men,
And righteousness flowed before them as water,


In the Bible there is no mentioning of angels petitioning for man. I can not find anything about this in the New Testament or the Old Testament.

What I can find is;

1 John 5:14-15
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Could this have been different before The Lord instituted animal sacrifices, and Jesus arrival?  

Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian


Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:54 am
[Chapter 42]

1 Wisdom found no place where she might dwell;
Then a dwelling-place was assigned her in the heavens.

Wisdom is also said to be female in the Bible.


Proverbs 8:1–9:12
Does not wisdom call?

Does not understanding raise her voice?

On the heights beside the way,

at the crossroads she takes her stand;

beside the gates in front of the town,

at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:

“To you, O men, I call,  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:12 pm
[Chapter 45]

1 And this is the second Parable concerning those who deny the name of the dwelling of the holy ones and the Lord of Spirits.

2 And into the heaven they shall not ascend,
And on the earth they shall not come:
Such shall be the lot of the sinners
Who have denied the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Who are thus preserved for the day of suffering and tribulation.

3 On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory
And shall try their works,
And their places of rest shall be innumerable.


And their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine Elect Ones,
And those who have called upon My glorious name:
4 Then will I cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them.

And I will transform the heaven and make it an eternal blessing and light
5 And I will transform the earth and make it a blessing:


And I will cause Mine elect ones to dwell upon it:
But the sinners and evil-doers shall not set foot thereon.


6 For I have provided and satisfied with peace My righteous ones
And have caused them to dwell before Me:

But for the sinners there is judgement impending with Me,
So that I shall destroy them from the face of the earth.


Comment: Correlates with Bible verses such as;

Jesus Being the Elect One judging the world:

Acts 10:42
"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

The Elect Ones living on the New Earth;

Psalm 37:29
The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

Psalm 37:9
For the evildoers will be cut off, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.

Daniel 7:18
But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.'

The Elect One sitting on the throne of glory;

Matthew 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

Revelation 22:3
No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.  

Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian


Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:14 am
[Chapter 60]
7 And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the 8 abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named Duidain, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell, where my grandfather was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first 9 man whom the Lord of Spirits created.

Leviathan is understandably described also in the Bible in terms that can be considered monsterous. Example:

Job 41:1-34
“Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook or press down his tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he make many pleas to you? Will he speak to you soft words? Will he make a covenant with you to take him for your servant forever? Will you play with him as with a bird, or will you put him on a leash for your girls? ...

BUT, and here is a big but. He is not a she. The Bible says it is a male creature.

That alone I would say is enough to say that The Book of Enoch is not inspired and trustworthy in the same sense as the Bible. In other terms it is not Scripture.  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:13 pm
Chapter 62

Highlighted section.

4 Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail,
[And she has pain in bringing forth]
When her child enters the mouth of the womb,
And she has pain in bringing forth.

And one portion of them shall look on the other,
And they shall be terrified,
And they shall be downcast of countenance,
And pain shall seize them,
When they see that Son of Man Sitting on the throne of his glory.

Commentary: seems an obvious reference to the second comming and the revealing of His glory to the world. The responses described here are also found in the book of revelation and starts with the opening of the sixth seal:

Revelation 6:15-17
Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Isaiah 2:10
Go into the rocks and hide in the dust from the terror of the LORD and the splendor of His majesty.


Continuing the book of Enoch:

6 And the kings and the mighty and all who possess the earth shall bless and glorify and extol him who rules over all, who was hidden.

7 For from the beginning the Son of Man was hidden,
And the Most High preserved him in the presence of His might,
And revealed him to the elect.

Check this out! This is a marvelous description of Jesus as the Son of Man is one of His own favourite terms for Himself! Furthermore it is quite accurate in describing his hiddenness and Him being revealed to the elect. To the world His glory has not been revealed yet.

The New Testament usage of the term correspond with those found in the Book of Daniel of the Hebrew scriptures - Daniel 7:13-14 "As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient One and was presented before him. To him was given dominion and glory and kingship, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed." The New Testament claims, in Revelation, that Jesus will come to earth on the "clouds of heaven," and that he will be given unending dominion and authority. It describes him as the "ruler of the kings of the earth," to be served and worshiped by all nations, people, and language groups.  

Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian


Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:18 am
[Chapter 65]

And he arose from thence and went to the ends of the earth, and cried aloud to his grandfather Enoch: 3 and Noah said three times with an embittered voice: Hear me, hear me, hear me.' And I said unto him: ' Tell me what it is that is falling out on the earth that the earth is in such evil plight 4 and shaken, lest perchance I shall perish with it ? ' And thereupon there was a great commotion , on the earth, and a voice was heard from heaven, and I fell on my face. And Enoch my grandfather came and stood by me, and said unto me:


Comment:
Noah visits his grandfather enoch in the flesh.

If you make a time line chart based on Genesis Chapter 5, you will find that Enoch was taken by God:

- 69 years before Noah was born,
- 569 years before God TOLD NOAH to build the ark, and
- 669 years before the flood started.

It is evident then to all readers that this book, as fare as this part goes is not revealed by God.  
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